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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> New Theory - Henges - Engineering in Prehistory
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New Theory - Henges - Engineering in Prehistory |
corn
Joined:
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|  Posted 14-06-2006 at 19:53
[quote]
On 2006-06-14 16:41, cropredy wrote:
Corn, this jcantunes theory is getting you all wound up ?
< No/yes it's just silly>
If you have ever tried to move really heavy objects < yes, I can carry a hay bail in each hand and build with heavy sandstone....I don't need 'gears' or round objects.>
Trees fit the bill nicely, but the more you chop them down, the further away from you they will be,
< what? no you just move!>
If a few lean harvests occur, you could easily perish ?
< no there are other things to eat: meat, roots, fruit>
If you look around you now, it is just the same, and if a natural calamity happened , how long would you think most people would survive?
< In the towns/cities yes, but not me!>
...we would be straight back to been cavemen/women.
< and how did they manage then?>
Think how important the dowser would be then, when all the worlds water would be contaminated /
You would really need to find clean water fast, or die .
< Clean water, in this country, is VERY easy to find!>
Do you actually think before you write something at all ?
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coldrum
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| Posted 14-06-2006 at 20:53
The term caveman is inaccurate.Paleolithic a better term I think. Well we're here,proof I think that they were pretty good at surviving.Seems they were even weaving textiles during the Ice ages.
Two favourite books of mine are eye openers on the subject of stoneage man:
Secrets of the Stoneage and Lost Civilisations of the Stoneage both by Richard Rudgley.
As Corn said above,there were other food sources.Fish,birds,shellfish,wild animals (hare,wild boar,deer,seals,theres evidence that stranded whales were exploited),leaves,roots,berries,fruits,fungi,nuts and worms (I have a genuine recipe from the Middle ages for worm stew,if people were hungry I'm sure they wouldnt have been fussy).
Prehistoric Cooking by Jacqui Wood and Food and Cooking In Prehistoric Britain by Jane Renfrew are a couple of good books that give an overview on the subject,the Jacqui Wood book mentions a lot of experiments the author has done on cooking of that period.
Have to admit the ordinary little things like what clothes they wore,what they cooked,their pottery that sort of thing interests me.
This sort of thing is part of the picture too,but gets forgotten.Not exciting enough.
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corn
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| Posted 14-06-2006 at 21:07
Hi Coldrum
Thought your answer was brilliant. I will get the books you mentioned, might improve my cooking too! (I'm interested in their pottery and clothes as well.) 
[ This message was edited by: corn on 2006-06-15 12:14 ]
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cropredy
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| Posted 14-06-2006 at 21:18
Corn, told you that you are worked up.
Don't know if I am going to argue with someone who can carry a hay bail in each hand though ?
You say clean water is easy to find, yes it is now, but just imagine if all the surface water became poisened overnight ?
How many could find clean water then ?
The point about trees was relating to stone henge, they wouldn't leave there , just because the trees were gone, so they would need to bring the goods to themselves, which is what jca. is talking about ?
Why is it so hard to percieve that ancient people couldn't do exactly what we are doing now ?
There is this rosy idea about a few people dressed as barbarians with antlers as shovels, hardly able to speak etc, what rubbish, they were probably better off than ourselves and far more versatile.
I like jca.s rock and roll ideas
Kevin
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coldrum
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| Posted 14-06-2006 at 22:32
I'm confused,I mentioned the fact that paleolithic people were weaving way before they were conventionally supposed to.The fact that we are here is proof that ancient people were not stupid,but must have been resourcefull.
I've heard so many theories from different people of how they think the stones were put up and earth energies that it seems the people who were responsible for them have been forgotten.Nobody seems to be interested in the bits of pottery,the food remains the signs of everyday life.
Last year I went on an archaeology holiday in Wiltshire.
I was lucky enough to go behind the scenes of Wessex Archaeology.
I was amazed at the boxes full of artifacts that had been found on digs.
Boxes of animal bones and pottery,bags of flints.
None of this you find in a museum.They only want the nice stuff.
I got to hold neolithic pottery.You could see the makers fingerprints.That was amazing.
Making a pot,weaving clothe,making beads,knapping flints are all just as complex as raising a megalith.
I've tried flint knapping,weaving and pottery making.It's not easy,you have to be skilled at it.
You cant pick up a lump of clay and instantly come up with a nice beaker pot.
I get the feeling that the megaliths are a male dominated arena.Something to do with strength etc.Obviously the men building stonehenge didn't need food.
Weaving,cooking and pottery making are probably considerd womens work and therefore not worth looking into.
[ This message was edited by: coldrum on 2006-06-14 22:37 ]
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rbatham
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from Western Australia
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| Posted 15-06-2006 at 04:12
My site is based in facts and presents a theory to be studied. [/quote]  Enough is enough. I don't know where you studied engineering or what qualifications you have. You should ask for your money back as you do not seem to understand the basic principles of 'applied mechanics'. Have you never heard of Sir Isaac Newton.? or his laws of motion? For EVERY ACTION there is an EQUAL AND OPPOSITE REACTION. Force equals mass x acceleration, etc. AS I have pointed out before Your 'coin' Nutates because of the rotary motion applied to it. NUTATION CANNOT AND DOES NOT PRODUCE ROTARY MOTION. Okay, you set up your 'gear' to move a 2 ton load. You need to apply a greater force to overcome inertia and friction. Where is that force coming from? The load will react with an equal opposite force and STOP you nutation DEAD! DEAD! DEAD! If you are dragging this load your force needs to be applied in the HORIZONTAL plane, yet you want animals or humans to achieve this by applying a VERTICAL force to the rim. If you want your gear to rotate he force must be applied TANGENTIALLY, like the sailors with a capstan.
I have made a model of your gear. A clock wheel about 2in dia about 80 teeth. It has a central spindle I put this gear on a jar top and dug the spindle into the plastic lining to form a pivot. The wheel is tilted about 20 deg. and the spindle leans 20 deg from the vertical. When I push down on the teeth with a small screwdriver the tooth simply goes straight down. There is no ROTARY motion. I do see what appears to be rotary motion of the spindle but that is merely precession due to the tilt. I tied a rope (cotton) to the top of the spindle, It won't move anything because it keeps changing direction. NUTATING GEARS DO NOT WORK. rbatham
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AnewMerlinian
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| Posted 15-06-2006 at 04:17
Well in 1971 me and my family were ''chilling'' at Stonehenge, which was very peaceful, by the way, when it got hit by lightning... ;-) ...I returned as one of those people with a ''theory'' about how they built the place, but it's been so long even I can't remember if it's right.
Try not to be too frustrated with us. Remember, these sites were important to them too, and they came in all sizes. Most of the circles were much smaller and used unworked stones. There's every reason to believe that women and raiment were important to them, after all, the earth was their mother, and known to dress well.
..
~
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corn
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| Posted 15-06-2006 at 11:44
[quote]
On 2006-06-14 21:18, cropredy wrote:
.... if all the surface water became poisened overnight ?
Reply: 'We have masses of easily accessable underground water! Even a high percentage of our tap water comes from underground reservoirs/rivers, Severn Trent Water took me round one of these plants just outside the Potteries'
The point about trees was relating to stone henge....
Reply:'Misunderstood that bit, still don't understand what you are getting at!'
Why is it so hard to percieve that ancient people couldn't do exactly what we are doing now ?
Reply:'Not hard for me, in many ways they were far better than modern man', Sue.
[ This message was edited by: corn on 2006-06-15 11:49 ]
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corn
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| Posted 15-06-2006 at 12:04
Quote:
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On 2006-06-15 04:12, rbatham wrote:
.... NUTATING GEARS DO NOT WORK. rbatham
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Hi, Top marks for this. (Think that's put a lid on the whole thing now.)
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corn
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| Posted 15-06-2006 at 12:17
[quote]
On 2006-06-15 04:17, AnewMerlinian wrote: I returned as one of those people with a ''theory'' about how they built the place...
Hi, Are you going to tell us all what your theory is?
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rbatham
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| Posted 15-06-2006 at 13:42
Quote:
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On 2006-06-15 12:17, corn wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-06-15 04:17, AnewMerlinian wrote: I returned as one of those people with a ''theory'' about how they built the place...
Hi, Are you going to tell us all what your theory is?
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I hope it's something sensible. Don't think i can stand another mechanical theory. Hope he starts with facts. What exactly are we sure of about SH, and I mean absolutely sure of? The stones are there at Lat X lon Y. That is all.
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Salopian
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| Posted 15-06-2006 at 14:03
"What exactly are we sure of about SH, and I mean absolutely sure of? The stones are there at Lat X lon Y. That is all."
A bit more than that - it was subject to many radical design changes over many centuries; it has some deliberate astronomical alignments; it could have been transported and erected using timber and rope and absolutely nothing else.
Beyond that, the reason for erecting it, and erecting it in that form, and erecting it in that place are not known.... and to say you KNOW is to prove you don't!
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AnewMerlinian
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| Posted 15-06-2006 at 14:19
Oh, gosh, if you want to have a go at it...
Check ''The Merlin Wheel'' thread at the bottom of page 2 of ''Sacred Sites'', (perhaps the top of page 3). But if you're looking for someone who'll start with the facts, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. I've always started with fancy.
~ Anew
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rbatham
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from Western Australia
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| Posted 15-06-2006 at 14:24
Quote:
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On 2006-06-15 14:03, Salopian wrote:
"What exactly are we sure of about SH, and I mean absolutely sure of? The stones are there at Lat X lon Y. That is all."
A bit more than that - it was subject to many radical design changes over many centuries; it has some deliberate astronomical alignments; it could have been transported and erected using timber and rope and absolutely nothing else.
Beyond that, the reason for erecting it, and erecting it in that form, and erecting it in that place are not known.... and to say you KNOW is to prove you don't!
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How can yoube sure the changes were made over many centuries? it could be many years or even millenia. How long have the stones been there?You cannot date the stones by radiometric means as that would give the geological age. may pinpoint the source. You cannot date the site by carbon from ashes as that only gives the date of the ashes. What puzzles me is the erosion and degredation of the stones. Suppose that they were properly dressed like a greek temple. how long would it take to be in treir present condition. I'm told that Nelson's statue erected in 1852 has lost only about 1/1000th of an inch from it's surface. So SH could be many millenia years old  Roy
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rbatham
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| Posted 15-06-2006 at 14:31
Quote:
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On 2006-06-15 14:19, AnewMerlinian wrote:
Oh, gosh, if you want to have a go at it...
Check ''The Merlin Wheel'' thread at the bottom of page 2 of ''Sacred Sites'', (perhaps the top of page 3). But if you're looking for someone who'll start with the facts, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. I've always started with fancy.
~ Anew
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Don't bother
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Salopian
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| Posted 15-06-2006 at 14:37
Quote:
| How can yoube sure the changes were made over many centuries? it could be many years or even millenia. |
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Stuff here about dating - http://www.eng-h.gov.uk/stoneh/start.htm
Not sure about dating by erosion. There would be very little with sarsen anyway. It laughs at granite 
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corn
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| Posted 15-06-2006 at 15:17
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On 2006-06-15 14:37, Salopian wrote:
[quote]
Not sure about dating by erosion. There would be very little with sarsen anyway. It laughs at granite
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I don't think so! Sarsen is sandstone, a sedimentary rock, whereas Granite is an igneous (and often metamorphic) rock and therefore much harder and far more resistant to weathering. You would have alot of trouble trying to polish granite with flint and sugar/salt!
Anyway, if there was very little erosion to the sarsens then why isn't there any evidence of polishing in the less exposed parts, below ground even? 
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Salopian
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| Posted 15-06-2006 at 16:00
Sarsen is a sedimentary rock that has become infused so that it is more like a concrete. All the chat on the net is that it's two or three times harder than granite. Not that I know much about geology mind you so that might not be right.
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Salopian
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| Posted 15-06-2006 at 16:24
Giant rollers like the Merlin Wheel have been postulated before. Here's one actually constructed - by the delightfully named Bruce Bedlam - http://www.stonehenge.tv/intro.html
The fallacy, unfortunately, as the engineering people on here will confirm, is that such contraptions can't be scaled up to the necessary size whilst commensurately increasing the strength to the requisite amount.
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JCAntunes
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| Posted 15-06-2006 at 17:01
I would like to call your attention to the fact that this theory is applied to the time when they have created and built Stonehenge and Stone circles and used them. You should understand that many generations have known this Stones, each generation has given them different meanings and values, this does not mean that those meanings are invalid and incompatible with the first ones. Many of them could use them as burial places, as astronomical places or other things.
When we build a church, a monument, a bridge the architectes and civil engineers think them to have a specific functions, they must have a floor, walls, ceillings, they must accomplish specific requirements as holding traffic, resisting trough time, wind, rain...
But people who use an see them think them by their own values. The construction lives by itself in time, depending of the societies and the transformations applied to the constructions.
I think the solstices rituals, or other values should be comemorated anyway because even if we can know more about Stonehenge, the values of the places still exist in our mind and in the ones who left.
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