| Author |
New Theory - Henges - Engineering in Prehistory |
corn
Joined:
23-03-2006
Messages: 103
 OFF-Line
|  Posted 14-06-2006 at 12:33
Quote:
|
On 2006-06-14 05:54, rbatham wrote:
< |
|
.....To mark out 56 equally spaced holes does need a knowledge of geometry. I don't think any of the ancient circles were laid out by trial and error.
[/quote]
Hi, I did not say that they were laid out by trial and error! Far from it, but their methods were basic..no need to make things so complicated! The oldest form of measurement is taken from using the human body i.e. 'foot'(12ins.), 'step/stride'(3ft), 'hand'(4ins.),
'thumb'(1inch) etc.
I find that these measurements work well with all the circles I have surveyed. It is very easy to make markers equal distance apart just by 'pacing' them out and a circle (starting from a centre marker). I've tried it out myself. What I was trying to say that the precision needed/achieved is not what certain people call 'precision' today. Making sun/moon alignments doesn't have to be within a centimetre. When calculations on where the sun rose it also has to be remembered that not only did the sun rise and set earlier but also at a different declination back then. 
 Profile
 Reply
|
rbatham
Joined:
04-04-2006
Messages: 679
from Western Australia
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 12:40
Quote:
|
This may well be the dawning of the age of Aquarious.
Kevin
|
|
Kevin, first it's dowsing. then it's Fibonacci. Now it's "this is the dawning of the age of Aquarius' Do you really understand what this means? it is when the vernal equinox moves from Pisces to Aquarius due to precession. That will not happen for another 600 years, Are you hoping to see it?  rbatham
Profile
 Email
Reply
|
corn
Joined:
23-03-2006
Messages: 103
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 12:59
Cropredy we were talking about 56 (aubrey holes) not the number 55!
Trees:The area around Stonehenge used to be forested. Some experts are unsure whether it still was at the time the first stage was built (bank & ditch and 15ft Heel stone) i.e. it was in a clearing. It seems to be generally believed that it was shrub land at some stage between then and the 2nd phase of build ( bluestones) some 600 years later. Anyway the land was cleared ( either by man or nature...or both) at some stage, grazing animals would've done alot of damage too. The topsoil would've eroded away....as it has in many de-forested/shrub areas.
Found out a bit more about salt/sugar. Sugar wasn't known in Britain until around 1100 A.D.
Salt making wasn't really around until 1st century B.C. Too late for Stonehenge. (some evidence in certain areas in late bronze age). It was produced in small quantities and was a valuable commodity. A vast ammount would've been needed to polish stones. Re-think needed on that idea then! 
Profile
Reply
|
corn
Joined:
23-03-2006
Messages: 103
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 13:03
Quote:
|
On 2006-06-14 01:12, JCAntunes wrote:
One of my ideas is that the Avenue or the Cursus could be used to polish the stones pushing them back and forward.
|
|
Oh please!! 
Profile
Reply
|
rbatham
Joined:
04-04-2006
Messages: 679
from Western Australia
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 13:05
Quote:
|
On 2006-06-14 12:33, corn wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-06-14 05:54, rbatham wrote:
< |
|
.....To mark out 56 equally spaced holes does need a knowledge of geometry. I don't think any of the ancient circles were laid out by trial and error.
[/quote]
Hi, I did not say that they were laid out by trial and error! Far from it, but their methods were basic..no need to make things so complicated! The oldest form of measurement is taken from using the human body i.e. 'foot'(12ins.), 'step/stride'(3ft), 'hand'(4ins.),
'thumb'(1inch) etc.
I find that these measurements work well with all the circles I have surveyed. It is very easy to make markers equal distance apart just by 'pacing' them out and a circle (starting from a centre marker). I've tried it out myself. What I was trying to say that the precision needed/achieved is not what certain people call 'precision' today. Making sun/moon alignments doesn't have to be within a centimetre. When calculations on where the sun rose it also has to be remembered that not only did the sun rise and set earlier but also at a different declination back then.
[/quote]Hi, I live near Guilderton, a small town on the coast ,north of Perth. Getting technical information is difficult, my nearest library is 60Kms away and I don't find much on ancient English sites.I asked about cubits for a specific reason. It was an ancient measure used much in the middle east. A book I read by Drs Ryan & Pitman about Noah's flood. They provided a lot of geological evidence to show that the Mediterranean burst through the Bosphorus and created the Black Sea. which they claim was a centre of civilisation. The populace escaped in all directions ,mid east, Europe etc. taking their culture with them This occured about 5760 BC. They may even eventually settled in Britain. Sea levels were 300ft lower then and the Scilly isles may have been joined to Cornwall, Orkneys,Shetlands joined to Scotland and the Devils causeway a dry route to Ireland. The English channel may have been more like a river. It may be these people that erected all the stones. All the monuments are too early for the Celts, so between Neanderthals and celts there was a people with technical ability of whom we know nothing. Roy
Profile
Email
Reply
|
Salopian
Joined:
12-06-2006
Messages: 241
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 13:20
Corn,
i wasn't suggesting they used salt or sugar, that just happened to be what i had in my kitchen! As you say, quartz or lots of things would work. In fact, I rather suspect the dust produced by rubbing was working.
The difference between my idea and others is that I haven't the foggiest if it's right, nor do I mind, but it is based upon an easily verifiable experiment...
Profile
Reply
|
rbatham
Joined:
04-04-2006
Messages: 679
from Western Australia
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 13:39
Quote:
|
On 2006-06-14 13:03, corn wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-06-14 01:12, JCAntunes wrote:
One of my ideas is that the Avenue or the Cursus could be used to polish the stones pushing them back and forward.
|
|
Oh please!!
[/quote]My sentiments exactly. One chemical used to polsh stone is Tin Oxide. Plenty of that in Cornwall. Perhaps they used the crane to winch bags of it from there. rbatham
Profile
Email
Reply
|
corn
Joined:
23-03-2006
Messages: 103
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 13:40
Quote:
|
On 2006-06-14 13:05, rbatham wrote:
[quote]...I asked about cubits for a specific reason. Roy
|
|
Hi, Interesting theory and is entirely possible of course.The Celts didn't arrive here until around 500 B.C., think the Gaels arrived in Ireland a bit earlier. The cubit is also an ancient 'body' measurement, length of arm from elbow to top of middle finger and is variable,(presumably depending on whose arm was used!). It's a measurement between 18 to 22 inches....what long arms some had! (mines 16 ins.). Doesn't seem to be a standard length so would be difficult to know what they used at each site. Sue
Profile
Reply
|
corn
Joined:
23-03-2006
Messages: 103
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 13:46
Quote:
|
On 2006-06-14 13:20, Salopian wrote:
i wasn't suggesting they used salt or sugar..
|
|
Fair enough! It was just interesting to look into the possibilities though O.k?
Profile
Reply
|
corn
Joined:
23-03-2006
Messages: 103
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 13:50
On 2006-06-14 13:39, rbatham wrote:
[/quote]..One chemical used to polsh stone is Tin Oxide. Plenty of that in Cornwall. Perhaps they used the crane to winch bags of it from there. rbatham
[/quote]
Brilliant! Of course that's what they must have used the blessed crane for! Hope JCA likes this one!
Profile
Reply
|
corn
Joined:
23-03-2006
Messages: 103
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 13:51
On 2006-06-14 13:39, rbatham wrote:
[/quote]..One chemical used to polsh stone is Tin Oxide. Plenty of that in Cornwall. Perhaps they used the crane to winch bags of it from there. rbatham
[/quote]
Brilliant! Of course that's what they must have used the blessed crane for! Hope JCA likes this one!
Profile
Reply
|
cropredy
Joined:
01-01-2006
Messages: 5525
from Oxon
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 14:17
Jcantunes, Have you thought about the possibility of your gearing method been employed for the raising of stones on a more local basis ?
It would provide a method of leverage that has always been assumed was carried out by almost an army of people.
Same at the pyramids, if they used a similer gearing mechanism, and had cattle or similer walking around providing the drive ?
I particurally like your ideas as per the round barrows and bell barrows, these constructions have been puzzling me for a while.
I am sure all the burial bits are later than when they were origonally constructed?
They are on detectable alignments, but the lines tend to skim the edges of them, unlike the long barrows where the main line goes directly into the centre, both constructions would provide excellent shapes for your rock and roll theories.
Kevin
Profile
Reply
|
corn
Joined:
23-03-2006
Messages: 103
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 14:47
Quote:
|
On 2006-06-14 14:17, cropredy wrote:
Jcantunes, Have you thought about the possibility of your gearing method been employed for the raising of stones on a more local basis ?
|
|
What stones, where?
I suppose JCA thinks that the stones at Arbor Low henge fell because the gearing mechanism was too heavy!? ( Rather than they weren't deeply embedded into the ground and made of limestone!)
Profile
Reply
|
cropredy
Joined:
01-01-2006
Messages: 5525
from Oxon
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 16:41
Corn, this jcantunes theory is getting you all wound up ?
Thats the idea.
If you have ever tried to move really heavy objects ( I have , boilers ) you soon learn to apply a force to move the object, and that the force needs to be geared so as to increase its power, and that to ease the movement and reduce friction, you have to place smooth round objects under the moving object.
So first you will have to produce the smooth round objects?
Trees fit the bill nicely, but the more you chop them down, the further away from you they will be, so you will have to keep building more and more apparatus to move them, then you will need more people to do this, and more flour will need to be ground to feed them?
If a few lean harvests occur, you could easily perish ?
Then some new people will appear and look at your strange moving apparatus and think giants must have moved them there stones ?
If you look around you now, it is just the same, and if a natural calamity happened , how long would you think most people would survive?
I would say days before people were killing each other and only months until most would be dead, a couple of years of this and we would be straight back to been cavemen/women.
Think how important the dowser would be then, when all the worlds water would be contaminated /
You would really need to find clean water fast, or die .
Kevin
Profile
Reply
|
JCAntunes
Joined:
28-09-2005
Messages: 20
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 16:43
Quote:
|
On 2006-06-14 14:47, corn wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-06-14 14:17, cropredy wrote:
Jcantunes, Have you thought about the possibility of your gearing method been employed for the raising of stones on a more local basis ?
|
|
What stones, where?
I suppose JCA thinks that the stones at Arbor Low henge fell because the gearing mechanism was too heavy!? ( Rather than they weren't deeply embedded into the ground and made of limestone!)
[/quote]
Of course not, they were surely put in the ground by people. You can see that many of them fell in radial direction and not tangential!
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/aburnham/eng/arborhi2.htm
The stones can fall because of the force applied to them by the nutating structure, not because of its weight.
Profile
Reply
|
JCAntunes
Joined:
28-09-2005
Messages: 20
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 16:55
Quote:
|
On 2006-06-14 14:17, cropredy wrote:
Jcantunes, Have you thought about the possibility of your gearing method been employed for the raising of stones on a more local basis ?
It would provide a method of leverage that has always been assumed was carried out by almost an army of people.
Same at the pyramids, if they used a similer gearing mechanism, and had cattle or similer walking around providing the drive ?
I particurally like your ideas as per the round barrows and bell barrows, these constructions have been puzzling me for a while.
I am sure all the burial bits are later than when they were origonally constructed?
They are on detectable alignments, but the lines tend to skim the edges of them, unlike the long barrows where the main line goes directly into the centre, both constructions would provide excellent shapes for your rock and roll theories.
Kevin
|
|
We will have to try it.
Rope lines can be tangential to circles if they are rolled in the periphery of the structure or go directly near the center if a smaller shaft is used when higher reduction and torque was needed.
Profile
Reply
|
JCAntunes
Joined:
28-09-2005
Messages: 20
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 16:59
Quote:
|
On 2006-06-14 13:51, corn wrote:
On 2006-06-14 13:39, rbatham wrote:
|
|
..One chemical used to polsh stone is Tin Oxide. Plenty of that in Cornwall. Perhaps they used the crane to winch bags of it from there. rbatham
[/quote]
Brilliant! Of course that's what they must have used the blessed crane for! Hope JCA likes this one!
[/quote]
If someone lives near Stonehenge he could try to taste the soil, maybe it is salty or candy!
Forget about polishing the stones, we can only analize it with evidences.
Profile
Reply
|
Salopian
Joined:
12-06-2006
Messages: 241
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 17:06
Quote:
| Forget about polishing the stones, we can only analize it with evidences.
|
|
OH! So evidence matters does it?
Well this thread is looking up.
Profile
Reply
|
JCAntunes
Joined:
28-09-2005
Messages: 20
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 18:17
Quote:
|
On 2006-06-14 17:06, Salopian wrote:
[quote]Forget about polishing the stones, we can only analize it with evidences.
|
|
OH! So evidence matters does it?
Well this thread is looking up.
[/quote]
My site is based in facts and presents a theory to be studied. If you have evidences related to polishing than you can propose your theory. I won't discuss that because I have no data to analize.
Profile
Reply
|
corn
Joined:
23-03-2006
Messages: 103
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-06-2006 at 19:35
On 2006-06-14 18:17, JCAntunes wrote:
My site is based in facts....
[/quote]
REALLY!? Must have missed those!
Profile
Reply
|
Main News