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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> New Theory - Henges - Engineering in Prehistory
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New Theory - Henges - Engineering in Prehistory |
corn
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|  Posted 13-06-2006 at 13:13
rbatham wrote:
[/quote]Yes, the question of a gap between NNE and NNW has puzzled me....geometry gave a more accurate field of view. It is more accurate to observe across the diameter of the circle than from the centre , so the need for a full circle. Mark three points on a circle. Join two of them to the third making an angle. then join to the centre and you will find the angle at the centre is twice the angle at the circumference.  Roy
[/quote]
Hi Roy, I, like many others, do not think that the circle builders paid much attention to accurate geometry and had little concern with maths. They built very few perfect circles and any so called alignments were quite basic. In other words it wasn't high precision work. (This is now the view of many top researchers). So I cannot see the relevance of this calculation. Or am I missing the point? ;-Also wouldn't it confuse issues to place markers where no alignments were possible? Especially as there's nothing to differentiate them from the 'real' ones. i.e. in the case of the Aubrey holes they are all, I'm led to believe, equal distance apart. Sue.
[ This message was edited by: corn on 2006-06-13 14:53 ]
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corn
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| Posted 13-06-2006 at 13:48
[quote]
On 2006-06-12 22:22, JCAntunes wrote:
Man intended to work the iron and bronze.
The casting was a promising activity and probably it would be necessary to carry ore to casting places as well as moving other essential goods throughout great and long distances.>
Is there evidence that they worked with iron,copper and tin (bronze is a alloy made with copper/tin) and did iron/bronze castings at Stonehenge?
Sorry to say but I just don't think this whole gearing idea has any credence whatsoever, especially reading what others have to say like Rbatham. 
[ This message was edited by: corn on 2006-06-13 13:51 ]
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JCAntunes
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| Posted 13-06-2006 at 17:15
Mortice and tenon joints could be used so that stones don't fall with the force applied to the nutating structure. Anyway it shows that they had the technique to work wood to make the nutating structure.
Shape of lintels inside and out to conform to the circle means that they had some way to cut stone easily.
The most advanced technology in those days were the henges, why couldn't they do one of them as perfect as they could? The others are as simple as standing stones and stone circles.
About iron, copper and casting you should talk to experts in Prehistory and Archeology. It is just an hypothese. I'm just sugesting a new theory to be analized and discussed.
Some images and text were updated!
Henges - Engineering in Prehistory
Mirror Site:
Henges - Engineering in Prehistory
[ This message was edited by: JCAntunes on 2006-06-13 17:15 ]
[ This message was edited by: JCAntunes on 2006-06-13 17:21 ]
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Salopian
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| Posted 13-06-2006 at 17:24
Quote:
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On 2006-06-13 17:15, JCAntunes wrote:
Shape of lintels inside and out to conform to the circle means that they had some way to cut stone easily. |
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If they did, there's no evidence for it. All that are left are stone mauls, so it seems they had to pound out the shapes using enormous effort. Sarsen is immensely hard and won't split in a predictable fashion or easily. The Egyptians had it MUCH easier.
I've tried pounding at sarsen, it's a complete nightmare.
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JCAntunes
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| Posted 13-06-2006 at 17:48
Quote:
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On 2006-06-13 17:24, Salopian wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-06-13 17:15, JCAntunes wrote:
Shape of lintels inside and out to conform to the circle means that they had some way to cut stone easily. |
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If they did, there's no evidence for it. All that are left are stone mauls, so it seems they had to pound out the shapes using enormous effort. Sarsen is immensely hard and won't split in a predictable fashion or easily. The Egyptians had it MUCH easier.
I've tried pounding at sarsen, it's a complete nightmare.
[/quote]
Did you try to polish them? Not with the traditional way. They could push and pull them over the floor... Does somebody know what type of soil is near stonehenge? Are there any signs off polished sarsens? (Just an idea)
[ This message was edited by: JCAntunes on 2006-06-13 17:48 ]
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corn
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| Posted 13-06-2006 at 17:56
Sarsen stones are hard sandstone boulders. Don't forget that the Egyptians also worked on granite...which is much harder. They were more advanced and had better tools than we did at this time.
Chalky soil around Stonehenge I believe. 
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Salopian
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| Posted 13-06-2006 at 18:02
Did you try to polish them?..... Are there any signs off polished sarsens? (Just an idea)
Yes I did. With a piece of flint and a grinding powder - I used sugar or salt, can't remember which - and it works really well, you can make them come up to a glass-like finish really easily. The stones were dressed for sure and maybe polished, who knows? It would have weathered away but it could have looked stunning once, a glittering palace....
(That's my fantasy, anyway!).
Not sure if polishing to move them would work. It might well have. It's chalk with a thin topsoil and vegetation there now, and probably was then. So polishing plus grease lubricant plus a big enough pulling team (or animals) might have been possible without the use of wooden rollers. I was part of the Stonehengineers team that tried different methods and that certainly seemed very possible to us.
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corn
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| Posted 13-06-2006 at 18:17
Quote:
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On 2006-06-13 18:02, Salopian wrote:
Did you try to polish them?..... Are there any signs off polished sarsens? (Just an idea)
Yes I did. With a piece of flint and a grinding powder - I used sugar or salt...
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Wouldn't sugar/salt just turn to useless dust on hard sandstone? White quartz(or rock crystal) might be a better option? Don't think there's any evidence for them ever being polished though. Perhaps the Bluestones were polished?
Lots of Oxen bones have been found on site which, to me, gives clear evidence that they used them to move/drag/lift stones into place.
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Salopian
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| Posted 13-06-2006 at 19:37
Wouldn't sugar/salt just turn to useless dust on hard sandstone?
All I can tell you is that it works. It does indeed become extremely fine as you use it, and that's what's needed in polishing I believe.
There's no evidence for it being done, I agree, but my point is that there wouldn't be, as the surface would weather quite quickly.
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corn
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| Posted 13-06-2006 at 20:29
O.K I'll take your word that sugar or salt works as an abrasive agent on hard sandstone,( I'll try it out). I wonder what the builders would've used if the stones did once have a polished surface? Deffinately not sugar, not sure about salt as don't think they used it nor is it an area known for salt deposits (unlike Cheshire). Interesting theory though
[ This message was edited by: corn on 2006-06-13 20:45 ]
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Salopian
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| Posted 13-06-2006 at 20:55
I'll try it out
Please do. I was really amazed at the effect, and it was so easily achieved. I'm surprised no-one has proposed it as a possibility before.
I forgot to mention that the flint becomes beautifully polished at the same time.
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JCAntunes
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| Posted 14-06-2006 at 01:12
I really don't know about sugar and salt, but I will check that out with some experts!
One of my ideas is that the Avenue or the Cursus could be used to polish the stones pushing them back and forward.
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rbatham
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from Western Australia
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| Posted 14-06-2006 at 05:22
Quote:
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On 2006-06-13 17:15, JCAntunes wrote:
Mortice and tenon joints could be used so that stones don't fall with the force applied to the nutating structure. Anyway it shows that they had the technique to work wood to make the nutating structure.
Shape of lintels inside and out to conform to the circle means that they had some way to cut stone easily.
The most advanced technology in those days were the henges, why couldn't they do one of them as perfect as they could? The others are as simple as standing stones and stone circles.
About iron, copper and casting you should talk to experts in Prehistory and Archeology. It is just an hypothese. I'm just sugesting a new theory to be analized and discussed.
Some images and text were updated!
Henges - Engineering in Prehistory
Mirror Site:
Henges - Engineering in Prehistory
[ This message was edited by: JCAntunes on 2006-06-13 17:15 ]
[ This message was edited by: JCAntunes on 2006-06-13 17:21 ]
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Another point. Your animation of a gear being lifted and turned over rough stones. Lintels would inhibit such movement, so why have them? As for no trees near SH, perhaps they were cut down to make your gears. There are lots of places in England where trees just will not grow. There may not be sufficient minerals near SH, just a thin topsoil and underlying chalk.  roy
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rbatham
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| Posted 14-06-2006 at 05:54
Quote:
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On 2006-06-13 13:13, corn wrote:
rbatham wrote:
|
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Yes, the question of a gap between NNE and NNW has puzzled me....geometry gave a more accurate field of view. It is more accurate to observe across the diameter of the circle than from the centre , so the need for a full circle. Mark three points on a circle. Join two of them to the third making an angle. then join to the centre and you will find the angle at the centre is twice the angle at the circumference. Roy
[/quote]
Hi Roy, I, like many others, do not think that the circle builders paid much attention to accurate geometry and had little concern with maths. They built very few perfect circles and any so called alignments were quite basic. In other words it wasn't high precision work. (This is now the view of many top researchers). So I cannot see the relevance of this calculation. Or am I missing the point? ;-Also wouldn't it confuse issues to place markers where no alignments were possible? Especially as there's nothing to differentiate them from the 'real' ones. i.e. in the case of the Aubrey holes they are all, I'm led to believe, equal distance apart. Sue.
<[/quote] Sue, The geometry I quoted was to illustrate the need for a full circle. To mark out 56 equally spaced holes does need a knowledge of geometry. I don't think any of the ancient circles were laid out by trial and error. If you have plans and measurements of SH and other circles have you tried converting to 'cubits'? might prove interesting. Roy
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cropredy
Joined:
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| Posted 14-06-2006 at 11:01
Rbatham, how do,
55 is a fibonacci number ?
I could set out the alignments of stone henge in under an hour, and would be more accurate than any surveyor, it is so easy, no need for any skill in geometry, just the ability to perform a little kind of magic.
If you go on google earth maps, you can zoom in close to sh, track along the cursus leading off it, and watch how it turns on a circle out in the fields, I can walk along these lines with ease, and can turn exactly where it does, I do this all the time.
http://maps.google.com/maps
Kevin
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cropredy
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| Posted 14-06-2006 at 11:10
Salopian, polished stones, excellent.
I consider that the stones would have been perfectly polished and finished, because of what I believe they were achieving with the stones would need you to polish and and align them to perfection, and then water would come into the equation as well, there will be a well close by, a measurable distance close by.
All we see now are remnants erroded by milleniums of weathering, the ancient peoples would have simply renewed and re-polished the stones, and they will have employed all available methods to manouvre the stones , and to polish and dress them to a high quality finish
Very skilled and clever people,possibly a long time before of any of the time spans that we have been parrot like, been led to believe ?
Kevin.
Kevin
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JCAntunes
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| Posted 14-06-2006 at 11:21
About the trees, take a look at the histories of Eastern Island..
The lintels are no problem, because the structure has nutation and planetary motion. I hope you understand what they are!
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cropredy
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| Posted 14-06-2006 at 11:36
Corn, You say that the circles are not precise ?
Consider that perhaps they are not circles for very good reason ?
To start ,forget circles, and think polygons, multi sided polygons .
Then imagine what you could achieve if you cross adjoining polygons?
Sacred geometry is the best way to start to be able to visualise this.
I have such an advantage with how I can dowse, and it is annoying that I can't verbalise my findings better, once I master a drawing software correctly, I will draw out what I find at different so called stone circles.
Every thirteen inchs around the spot where many lines cross, radiating outwards for 55 times are polygons, dependant on how many lines are crossing will determine the polygons shape, always the alignments of the lines mean that four dominant outlets occur at 90 degrees around the 360 degrees of the polygons( the cross, with a circle around it, celtic)
operating and flowing along these lines is a very subtle force, I know as PLASMA.
It is able to jump at will around the geometric patterns formed by the lines, it takes a fair curve track inwards into the centre of the polygons in a perfect golden ratio shape.
It also travels in/out at the 90 degree points, and travels to the next circle ( polygon )
There are too many other occurances happening at these points for me to write out here, but for some reason I find it easy to track them all, it is awesome, totally wonderfull and inspiring, the most glorious complex matrix system of nature.
By carefully positioning the stones ( by using the available signals, its easy ) you can manipulate the flow and outlets of the plasma, you can gear up , by millions to one, the most subtle of signals, and use the higher potential for your use.
There are two flows to this plasma, one creates all, the other dissolves all.
By using our brains and re-learning how to fully manipulate this plasma, we can again achieve what was clearly to me understood before, FREE TO ALL ENERGY< totally as it is supplied by the fibonacci system we are operating in.
Kevin,
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cropredy
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| Posted 14-06-2006 at 11:54
jcantunes, I am so pleased that people are looking at your findings, I think they have great merit, especialy for the working and finishing of the stones?
Similer in a way to windmills, by usuing the gearing available, they would have been able to use the chalk and flint to great precisions.
The spoils of all of this work would then have been constantly further employed in forming the embankments and coverings for the barrows, sort of a continuous factory .
Why it has all been forgotten is perhaps due to the cyclable nature of the universe ?
If the very reason for all of this effort diminished because of our planet moving on its never ending clockwork pathway, and entering a part of space where the plasma levels are different, then you can imagine them believing that their gods had desserted them ?
Perhaps at this very moment we are re-entering apart of space where the plasma levels are again higher, and so are becoming more powerfull ( crop circles )
This may well be the dawning of the age of Aquarious.
Kevin
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corn
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| Posted 14-06-2006 at 12:32
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On 2006-06-14 05:54, rbatham wrote:
< |
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.....To mark out 56 equally spaced holes does need a knowledge of geometry. I don't think any of the ancient circles were laid out by trial and error.
[/quote]
Hi, I did not say that they were laid out by trial and error! Far from it, but their methods were basic..no need to make things so complicated! The oldest form of measurement is taken from using the human body i.e. 'foot'(12ins.), 'step/stride'(3ft), 'hand'(4ins.),
'thumb'(1inch) etc.
I find that these measurements work well with all the circles I have surveyed. It is very easy to make markers equal distance apart just by 'pacing' them out and a circle (starting from a centre marker). I've tried it out myself. What I was trying to say that the precision needed/achieved is not what certain people call 'precision' today. Making sun/moon alignments doesn't have to be within a centimetre. When calculations on where the sun rose it also has to be remembered that not only did the sun rise and set earlier but also at a different declination back then. 
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