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sem
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from Bridgend,S.Wales
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|  Posted 20-10-2008 at 22:12
Too true Tiompan
Luckily I am an amateur and am able to "**** Y**" to archaeolologists.
The fun is finding the sighting.
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chimera
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| Posted 21-10-2008 at 08:15
All the stones are too crude to be instruments. Sailors have always used small hand-held devices to measure great dimensions. Could it be that measurements at Stonh. were done by small precise tools, and the stones embody those observations? As an example, each church does not calculate its various holy days, but follows central instructions. Perhaps Stonh. priests did not lead the astronomy, but followed the techos and just worked on the mumbo-jumbo power-status.
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Chyknel2
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| Posted 21-10-2008 at 08:32
"Hi Chy
I would totally agree with what you say if I hadn't spent a few weekends with JackME.
The trick is to look for alignments within the stones. A lump here, a notch there and maybe two bumps with a gap in between. Then check the horizon."
Sure. Some probably are, a lot merely might be, it depends on the design. Ones that direct a shaft of light through a hole are the strongest contenders I suppose.
The other problem is that everything points to something. Oh, and if you stand on your left leg it works but on your right leg it doesn't - so you have to fight the ideomotor effect!
I personally suspect a lot of alignments were intended to be symbolic ones, approximately right, whereas our modern mindset leads us to look for a spectacular degree of alignment whereas they didn't much care. Not that they weren't capable of lining thin markers up with extreme accuracy but with stones it was neither easy nor required.
The above are all complete guesses, which is the whole problem with the subject.
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tiompan
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| Posted 21-10-2008 at 10:27
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On 2008-10-21 08:15, chimera wrote:
All the stones are too crude to be instruments.
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But when you have an orienation involving more than two stones
e.g. a stone row ,avenue , passage etc then there is evidence of some sort of indication ,this has greater saliency than any any two stones and a topographical feature like a notch .The accuracy need not be that great but good enough to provide signs of intention e.g. Newgrange .
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sem
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| Posted 21-10-2008 at 22:23
Tiompan & Chy
Sorry, but yet again I disagree.
The alignment markings on the stone rows I am investigating are precise. What they point at I don't know. My knowledge of things celestial is very limited, but is improving. The one thing I am sure of is that the targets of the alignments were designed to be seen, or if atmospheric conditions precluded sight, allowed participants a "spiritual sighting."
I could be accused of having the "dowser syndrome," but have found that these stones were erected for a purpose and involve using human intellect and intuition. Two practical examples may illustate this.
1 An unknown stone row where a "V" on stone4 sights the other three and they together form the horizon.
2 Lost in the early hours of the morning in the Brecon Beacons I trusted stones to get me to the above row. When I checked them out later I found sheer rock faces either side of them.
These people didn't put stones up without reason.
Sem
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Chyknel2
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| Posted 22-10-2008 at 05:27
I didn't mean to imply alignments didn't exist, only that they are all on a spectrum of accuracy and therefore certainty.
I certainly find your experience here intriguing -
"Lost in the early hours of the morning in the Brecon Beacons I trusted stones to get me to the above row. When I checked them out later I found sheer rock faces either side of them"
.... for two reasons:
First, I'm a great believer in approaching these things with the possible mindset of the builders, rather than a modern one since it seems to me that is one step closer to seeing them how they actually are.
Second, you seem to be describing a route-finding aid. I feel Watkins' original notion of leys, before it became built upon, was exactly that. I think it needs to be revisited, in it's original form, which is exactly what you seem to have done.
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chimera
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| Posted 22-10-2008 at 09:43
"Spectrum of accuracy" fits exactly.
Tiompan:"The accuracy need not be that great but good enough to provide signs of intention e.g. Newgrange ."
It is quite precise and that needed previous surveying. Etruscan "cardo" priests later defined the cardinal points for a new temple, and made the sign of the cross in the centre of the site to align it. So with Stonh., the intention may be deduced from signs, and the actual structure is down the spectrum of precision.
The heelstone has no notches, no sunbox behind it or even a horizon on it. The precision was in the surveying.
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cropredy
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| Posted 22-10-2008 at 10:24
" The precision was in the surveying"
Total agreement.
I propose that the surveying is simple, and it takes a simple mind to do it.
The brainy look for brainy complex method/s ( Thom)
Whilst the simple one looks on in amazement at the complexity of what is so simple.
kevin
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tiompan
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| Posted 22-10-2008 at 16:22
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On 2008-10-22 09:43, chimera wrote:
"Spectrum of accuracy" fits exactly.
Tiompan:"The accuracy need not be that great but good enough to provide signs of intention e.g. Newgrange ."
It is quite precise and that needed previous surveying. Etruscan "cardo" priests later defined the cardinal points for a new temple, and made the sign of the cross in the centre of the site to align it. So with Stonh., the intention may be deduced from signs, and the actual structure is down the spectrum of precision.
The heelstone has no notches, no sunbox behind it or even a horizon on it. The precision was in the surveying.
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Not sure what you are saying C , but in relation to Stonehenge Andrew Johnson has come up with a decent proposal for the construction ,absing mainly on simple geometry , as for the astronomy at Stone henge mmmm , nobody seems to agree the centere to heel stone solstice alignment is not too accurate ,slightly better in the other direction though but if it is just general orientation it doesn't matte r.I doubt if there was actually some "astro priest "standing behind it "observing " the event .
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tiompan
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| Posted 22-10-2008 at 16:29
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On 2008-10-21 22:23, sem wrote:
Tiompan & Chy
Sorry, but yet again I disagree.
The alignment markings on the stone rows I am investigating are precise. What they point at I don't know. My knowledge of things celestial is very limited, but is improving. The one thing I am sure of is that the targets of the alignments were designed to be seen, or if atmospheric conditions precluded sight, allowed participants a "spiritual sighting."
I could be accused of having the "dowser syndrome," but have found that these stones were erected for a purpose and involve using human intellect and intuition. Two practical examples may illustate this.
1 An unknown stone row where a "V" on stone4 sights the other three and they together form the horizon.
2 Lost in the early hours of the morning in the Brecon Beacons I trusted stones to get me to the above row. When I checked them out later I found sheer rock faces either side of them.
These people didn't put stones up without reason.
Sem
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Sem , when you say that they are precise do you mean that they do not deviate from a straight line ? If that is the case then if you get the bearing/azimuth ,and grid ref for the start and finish it should be able simple enough when the horizon is included to see if there is a meaningful astronomical alignment . If you also know the altitude and have a pic of the horizon in both directions it would make it easier but quite a lot can be done from the map .Of course it may have nothing to do with astonomy too .
George
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chimera
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| Posted 23-10-2008 at 07:48
"I doubt if there was actually some "astro priest "standing behind it "observing " the event ."
We are probably all agreeing, but with confusing expressions. In a sentence, I feel the astronomy was needed before Stonehenge heelstone and avenue were built, but not afterwards.
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tiompan
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| Posted 23-10-2008 at 07:58
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On 2008-10-23 07:48, chimera wrote:
"I doubt if there was actually some "astro priest "standing behind it "observing " the event ."
We are probably all agreeing, but with confusing expressions. In a sentence, I feel the astronomy was needed before Stonehenge heelstone and avenue were built, but not afterwards.
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Remember that the heel stone was there any way , possibly an erratic and hardly moved .
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chimera
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| Posted 23-10-2008 at 08:17
Whaa? I'm confused again. Do you mean the heelstone was not intended to have alignment with sunrise, and the avenue was built without removing that erratic stone?
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tiompan
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| Posted 23-10-2008 at 08:59
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On 2008-10-23 08:17, chimera wrote:
Whaa? I'm confused again. Do you mean the heelstone was not intended to have alignment with sunrise, and the avenue was built without removing that erratic stone?
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The Hel stone had a ditch (approx 10 m) around it and this was respected by the SE bank of the Avenue . 2m To the north of the Heel stone there was another stone , it's socket was found in the late 70 's .If an "observation " was taken from the centre of the monument the the alignment over the heel stone is out , a better fit is towards the winter solstice .Sorry if this is old hat .
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chimera
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| Posted 23-10-2008 at 11:13
Brand new but learning fast. Then sunrise-sunset is not exactly 180 degrees? And the other heelstone is more /less in line with sunrise? But The Heel then would be intentional for the sunset line? Which makes the place funereal if the avenue was for the dead.
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tiompan
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| Posted 23-10-2008 at 11:36
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On 2008-10-23 11:13, chimera wrote:
Brand new but learning fast. Then sunrise-sunset is not exactly 180 degrees? And the other heelstone is more /less in line with sunrise? But The Heel then would be intentional for the sunset line? Which makes the place funereal if the avenue was for the dead.
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At sea or on a flat landscape sunrise /sunset is 180 but where the sun/moon will appear depends on the horizon . Imagine the sun rising at the equinox and you live in a glen surrounded by high hills , the sun will rise much further south of east from your viewing point .
From the Heel stone to the left of the grand trilithon (stone 56 ) is perfect for the setting midwinter sun . When you consider the amount of burials at Stonehenge it is fair to assume it has some funeral function .
George
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sem
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| Posted 23-10-2008 at 23:10
Tiompan
Just a few other factors that I haven't got my head around yet.
1) Sun has been rising to the south approx 1deg per 2000yrs.
2) Atmospheric refraction. This varies according water vapour in the atmosphere.
3) The Azimuth/Horizon relationship.
4) Magnetic to Actual North.
Given these I prefer visual sightings.
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chimera
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| Posted 24-10-2008 at 07:33
The mis-fit of sunrise:Heel: centre: sunset shows that the line is not 180 degrees, and was worse at construction. But the other heel stone socket at 2 yards north allows the avenue concept tp pass between those 2 stones. This brings both sunrise and sunset closer to alignment, through the great trilithon. Then there is a natural pathway without blockage for walking the avenue and straight through. It would be more correctly aligned at construction than now.
The squealing of hunted pigs at Durrington could be heard at Stonh., it seems, possibly for divination. A priest standing between the 2 heels may have a "sound-box" to collect the distant noise, at a solar rise/set, with Durrington on the opposite river-bank and opposite avenue-alignment, of the human world transmitting to the sacred.
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tiompan
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| Posted 24-10-2008 at 07:38
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On 2008-10-23 23:10, sem wrote:
Tiompan
Just a few other factors that I haven't got my head around yet.
1) Sun has been rising to the south approx 1deg per 2000yrs.
2) Atmospheric refraction. This varies according water vapour in the atmosphere.
3) The Azimuth/Horizon relationship.
4) Magnetic to Actual North.
Given these I prefer visual sightings.
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Sem ,
At the latitude of Stonehenge the difference in the azimuth of the rising sun in a millenium is closer to a change of 0.2 degrees .
Refraction is a problem for the observer but for highest accuracy it can be eliminated in calculations by inclusion of number in the declination calculations (see below ). This in effect means you shouldn't necessarily trust the visual although to be fair it would be reasonable to ask how much accuracy you are expecting in the "alignment " .
Azimuths(bearings ) by themselves are meaningless ,or at best a guide .
What is important is declination which takes into account ,Latitude ,altitude of horizon (with the refraction index included )distance between observer and horizon & azimuth .
Compass readings are rough (lots of factors effect readings )but useful a prismatic compass that has been calibrated is better , a theodolite is by far the most accurate if used expertly .It is possible to do relatively accurate work from maps .It all depends on what level of accuracy you think the people of the time may have been using .
George
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tiompan
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| Posted 24-10-2008 at 07:45
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On 2008-10-24 07:33, chimera wrote:
The mis-fit of sunrise:Heel: centre: sunset shows that the line is not 180 degrees, and was worse at construction. But the other heel stone socket at 2 yards north allows the avenue concept tp pass between those 2 stones. This brings both sunrise and sunset closer to alignment, through the great trilithon. Then there is a natural pathway without blockage for walking the avenue and straight through. It would be more correctly aligned at construction than now.
The squealing of hunted pigs at Durrington could be heard at Stonh., it seems, possibly for divination. A priest standing between the 2 heels may have a "sound-box" to collect the distant noise, at a solar rise/set, with Durrington on the opposite river-bank and opposite avenue-alignment, of the human world transmitting to the sacred.
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It has been suggested that the sunrise alignment was between the stones , it would certainly be closer .
Lots of animals killed for purposes of divination mmmm wouldn't one be enough ? Without a writtebn record much of the subtleties of any religion /rite etc it would be tremendously difficult to retrieve archaeologically .
George
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