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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2634
 OFF-Line
|  New Message Posted!2013-02-08 17:26
Quote:
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On 2013-02-08 16:23, sem wrote:
Hi George
I'm not asking you to be concinced of dowsing here, but would you find it interesting if I PMed you with the Grid ref of another possible circle just over 1km SW of Y Pigwn? It is small and the stones are not large, but both Angie and DocP have dowsed it and think it the real thing (Angie, it's the one with the steep slope to the N and from it both the Beacons and Fan Breicheiniog are visible). I think I took Cerrig there on a sheep hunt once!?!
This was found by myself and C (to be honest it was C, who happened to be sitting having a cuppa at the top of the slope at the time and said "Is that a circle down there?") on 26/3/05 and I have dated pictures. It is not on any track or road and at present, due to the sodden conditions, I think it would be virtually impossible to get to. I checked both Coflein and Archwilio today, and neither show anything anywhere near it.
In the this pic from Coflein it in the middle and to the left of the pipeline cutting.
 
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Sem , yes . Please do .
George
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sem
Joined:
12-11-2003
Messages: 1704
from Bridgend,S.Wales
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-02-08 16:25
Aaah, it didn't work.
Here's a link to it
http://map.coflein.gov.uk/index.php?action=do_collection_details&numlink=875184&cache_name=ZXh0ZW50dHlwZSxCT1hfbWlueCwyODI2OTVfbWlueSwyMzA1MTZfbWF4eSwyMzA0MjZfbWF4eCwyODI4NjNfc2VhcmNodHlwZSxhZHZhbmNlZF9vcmE=
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sem
Joined:
12-11-2003
Messages: 1704
from Bridgend,S.Wales
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-02-08 16:23
Hi George
I'm not asking you to be concinced of dowsing here, but would you find it interesting if I PMed you with the Grid ref of another possible circle just over 1km SW of Y Pigwn? It is small and the stones are not large, but both Angie and DocP have dowsed it and think it the real thing (Angie, it's the one with the steep slope to the N and from it both the Beacons and Fan Breicheiniog are visible). I think I took Cerrig there on a sheep hunt once!?!
This was found by myself and C (to be honest it was C, who happened to be sitting having a cuppa at the top of the slope at the time and said "Is that a circle down there?") on 26/3/05 and I have dated pictures. It is not on any track or road and at present, due to the sodden conditions, I think it would be virtually impossible to get to. I checked both Coflein and Archwilio today, and neither show anything anywhere near it.
In the this pic from Coflein it in the middle and to the left of the pipeline cutting.
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cerrig
Joined:
25-09-2009
Messages: 907
from Brecon Beacons
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-02-08 11:12
Hi Angie,This was the same route as followed by Mish, except for the final path you started to take . At this point she headed off N/Westish before swinging back around to the South.
Mish is a relative newcomer to dowsing, and she has no theories as to what is going on, so I couldn't say what she was following, and I'm not going to guess. All I know is that it led her along your path to the circles, and then on to circle 3.
Giving her a dowsing rod is a bit like letting a dog off a leash, she's gone, off into the sunset, oblivious to everything. Great fun but a bit tiring trying to keep up.
cerrig
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AngieLake
Joined:
12-03-2004
Messages: 550
from Newton Abbot, Devon
OFF-Line
|  New Message Posted!2013-02-07 17:03
The best evidence I can give is to copy and paste my report on the day I dowsed with Sem and Caroline:
"Carrying on up the Roman road, we shortly turned off it to the right where Simon showed me a large mossy stone with parallel crevices running across it, which had been mentioned in their book ‘Prehistoric Sites of Breconshire’ by Children and Nash, published by Logaston Press, 2001. (I wonder, now, if this was one of the avenue stones?).
Staying on that rough, tussocky terrain we headed for a ridge, beyond which Simon told me we would see Pigwn Circle; he also added that on the crest of this ridge ahead was a marker stone.
As we were walking uphill I used my dowsing rods to search for any possible avenue of stones that may once have existed, leading in the direction of Pigwn circles. Immediately the rods swung to my left, coaxing me about seven or eight yards at right-angles from my original path (and Simon and Caroline’s) until the rods once again turned me uphill, and, following this new angle of approach - parallel to Simon and Caroline - I eventually found myself standing between two actual stones in the ground at the top of the ridge – Simon’s ‘marker stone’ and a smaller one a few paces from it!
All of us then tried walking at right angles to the outer SW side of the ‘avenue’, and dowsing for the direction of movement down such an avenue, and I confirmed this to be accurate when my rods turned to the NW (in the direction of the circles) as I passed ‘between the stones’. I also approached from the NE side of the ‘avenue’, and the rods again pointed NW, seeming to confirm the focus of the movement within. Simon unfortunately didn’t get any movement with the rods when he tried, but I believe Caroline had some sort of reaction here.
In the map, below, the position of these stones is marked by red crosses at ‘A’.
[Map didn't copy!]
Map shows approach to the Y Pigwn circles along newly-found Ceremonial Avenue
Our spirits lifted by this discovery, we carried on, and I continued to dowse my way NW up the centre of the avenue, occasionally moving crab-like from centre-to-left, and centre-to-right to check my position was accurate. (I should add that I didn’t ‘ask’ for NW, but checked occasionally, and found my compass gave me this direction-reading constantly). Each time I moved side-to-side, the points of my rods would remain at the centre, as if they were attracted by a magnetic line there, showing exactly where I should walk. On several occasions we became excited as we realised I was moving between yet another actual pair of rugged stones lying on the ground either side of me – surely avenue markers?
Simon pointed out several similar stones along the NW side of the ridge, running SW-NE, and we speculated on whether there was another ‘walkway’ going in that direction, and we’d been at a kind of ‘crossroads’.
Carrying on, still checking regularly that I was centre-avenue, the ground began to rise towards the circles. At the beginning of the plateau-like area, on which Pigwn Circle and its neighbouring, noticeable four-stone placement stood, a huge fallen stone to my left caught my eye. Imagining how imposing it would have been if standing erect, I wondered if it was once half of a kind of ceremonial ‘Portal-pair’ on the approach to the circles. Though a few yards NE of the stone, I was still in my ‘avenue’.
[Missed out a bit here, but it is copied into one of my earlier posts on this thread.]
After a pause by the fallen stone for a rest and a drink we headed to Pigwn
(sometimes called ‘Trecastle Mountain ENE’) Circle, where I attempted to dowse its processional route. I was surprised not to be ‘taken’ (by following the movement of my rods) straight into the circle from my NW approach but, instead, moved along the outside southeast-to-south arc of the circle’s stones a few paces before entering it (with a rounded rather white stone to my left) and heading to the circular raised area at its centre - all the while looking ahead towards the highest ground of the horizon.
The results of the dowsing are shown below.
[Did not copy this as it's available in the Art section under 'Dowsing'.]
This time the usual ‘triple rod-opening’ didn’t occur on entry, but there were two rod-openings after I’d entered. Unusually, there were three rod-openings on leaving the circle. For those who are unfamiliar with my usual ritual dowsing results: I nearly always find that the rods open three times when entering a circle or on approach to any other ritually-important feature. This phenomenon, when it first happened to me, was described by the person who showed me how to dowse as a ‘respect’ acknowledgement of any given site, so I have kept using that term, as it seems to fit in with the situations I’m finding.
Despite being slightly distracted by Simon and Caroline’s presence I soon began following the rods around in a multiple anti-clockwise swirl on the raised central area. This was followed by a looping movement to North, which grounded in a multiple clockwise swirl back at the central mound again, but then opened up into a looping movement to West. Though I’ve found similar oval ‘petal’ patterns, I had not come across those ‘sock-like’ shapes before. I wondered if this compass-point ‘patterning’ would continue, but move no.11 brought me back to the centre without a grounding swirl, and led me directly to the SE perimeter, whereupon I tracked the circumference in a clockwise direction before leaving the circle.
Upon leaving the circle (and after the three rod-openings) the route took me in a curving, westerly, north-westerly, and south-westerly route to the four stones. On approaching this setting, having noticed that ‘Stone Circles’ were marked here on the Ordnance Survey map, I quite expected to be taken in another circle-type ritual movement; therefore, it was quite surprising to find that the rods opened at right angles to my forward movement as I passed between them - indeed, this continued to happen for several yards. Maybe at the early period I was dowsing, these stones had actually formed part of another ‘avenue’, and subsequently this avenue was made into a circle?
(I wasn’t aware, at that time, that there is a stone row in the vicinity – see research notes at end of this project.) In relation to these findings, it’s also worth remembering that a similar result occurred on the way here, when dowsing the cairn next to the Roman road. Caroline and I both found our rods opening at regular intervals as we traversed the ‘circle’ or ‘cairn’ in a NW/SE, or SE/NW direction. (This could have been in response to the gaps in between the circle’s stones?)
I kept walking forwards. I cannot now remember how long I proceeded like this with the rods continually opening at intervals. What I do remember, though, is Simon exclaiming excitedly that I was heading for the peak of Fan Brycheiniog – his ‘sacred’ mountain! (I was totally unaware of this because the mountain was shrouded in mist.) I know I was heading down a shallow slope towards a forested area with high mountains behind it.
Simon says the direction I was walking was roughly SSE, and there is an area of forested high ground to the south of these circles on the Ordnance Survey map.
I felt that maybe I was travelling more to the SSW, but I would need to return to the site to check this out. It’s a pity it was so misty that day, otherwise the position of majestic Fan Brycheiniog’s summit would have settled that slight uncertainty.
Unwilling to waste precious time walking down this valley, we turned back towards the circles.
(Simon tells me that though there are four visible stones, Children and Nash say they identified a further three, plus five sockets for missing stones. W.F.Grimes also claimed that there was an outer circle to it as well, making the two concentric."
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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2634
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-02-07 16:52
Quote:
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On 2013-02-07 16:25, cerrig wrote:
George, if you had ever been to Trecastle mountain you would know that the route taken by these ladies is far from an obvious one. If you had witnessed the events you would know these weren't random or even chance finds. If you had read what I posted properly you wouldn't have made the mistake of implying that I said that these things couldn't have been found any other way, unless you meant to mislead that is.
Whatever the case, in this instance, I am going to make what is for me, a very very rare stance, and I am going to ignore your normally worthwhile measured viewpoint.
cerrig
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Cerrig , Of course I read your post and didn't intend to mislead .Do you really think that ? I have just re-read it and still can't see , as I said originally , that there is anything in it to support “dowsing works “ . The area is a relatively flat easy going plateau on a hill with a Roman road close . The route may not have been the most obvious one but people wander all over the place in these circumstances . What are the finds ? There are monuments in the area that have been recorded , was there something new that has been verified ? Ignoring views are hardly helpful are not helpful in a discussion .
George
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2013-02-07 16:55 ]
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cerrig
Joined:
25-09-2009
Messages: 907
from Brecon Beacons
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-02-07 16:25
George, if you had ever been to Trecastle mountain you would know that the route taken by these ladies is far from an obvious one. If you had witnessed the events you would know these weren't random or even chance finds. If you had read what I posted properly you wouldn't have made the mistake of implying that I said that these things couldn't have been found any other way, unless you meant to mislead that is.
Whatever the case, in this instance, I am going to make what is for me, a very very rare stance, and I am going to ignore your normally worthwhile measured viewpoint.
cerrig
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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2634
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-02-07 15:39
Quote:
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On 2013-02-07 14:59, aknifethatfellfromthesky wrote:
People , like sheep , take similar routes , lots of others would have followed the same route as Angie . I don't see how that supports that "dowsing works " or what was discovered that was previously unknow that couldnt' have been discovered by non dowsing means .
George
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''people, like sheep''....
these are known as 'desire lines' Dx
[/quote]
Yep , they tend to be the easiest if not the shortest route , keep to the contours , avoid the boggy bit etc .When up to yours knees in heather even a rabbit route makes life easier . There are also routes across relatively easy going flat ground that are not so obviously visible like a path but the indications are more subtle .
George
George
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aknifethatfellfromthesky
Joined:
01-05-2008
Messages: 84
from within and without
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-02-07 14:59
Quote:
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On 2013-02-07 14:00, tiompan wrote:
Quote:
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On 2013-02-07 13:50, cerrig wrote:
When I say that "dowsing works" what I mean is; something causes the rods to move, and if you follow this movement it is possible to find things that were'nt known to you. The nitty gritty of that can be argued about of course, and it's reliability and accuracy etc. But it still works, somehow.How else could the same path as Angies be followed by someone with absolutely no prior knowledge of the area, the monuments, Angie Lake or her findings, or even that I had some rods with me. Michelle thought we were just going for a walk.
There's a lot of moorland either side of the road that could have been used, but it wasn't.
cerrig
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People , like sheep , take similar routes , lots of others would have followed the same route as Angie . I don't see how that supports that "dowsing works " or what was discovered that was previously unknow that couldnt' have been discovered by non dowsing means .
George
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''people, like sheep''....
these are known as 'desire lines' Dx
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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2634
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-02-07 14:00
Quote:
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On 2013-02-07 13:50, cerrig wrote:
When I say that "dowsing works" what I mean is; something causes the rods to move, and if you follow this movement it is possible to find things that were'nt known to you. The nitty gritty of that can be argued about of course, and it's reliability and accuracy etc. But it still works, somehow.How else could the same path as Angies be followed by someone with absolutely no prior knowledge of the area, the monuments, Angie Lake or her findings, or even that I had some rods with me. Michelle thought we were just going for a walk.
There's a lot of moorland either side of the road that could have been used, but it wasn't.
cerrig
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People , like sheep , take similar routes , lots of others would have followed the same route as Angie . I don't see how that supports that "dowsing works " or what was discovered that was previously unknow that couldnt' have been discovered by non dowsing means .
George
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