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Forum: Sacred Sites and Megalithic Mysteries
Moderated by : davidmorgan , TimPrevett , Andy B , Klingon , MickM , bat400 , sem , Runemage , TheCaptain
Respond to: People, stones, stone circles, Stonehenge and much, much, earlier:- Gobekli Tepe.
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ryszard
Joined:
16-10-2003
Messages: 53
from Canada
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|  New Message Posted!2013-02-19 14:17
Quote:
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On 2013-02-15 18:04, davidmorgan wrote:
a specific representation of whatever regional belief-system was in vogue at the time, which in my view was based on the environment.
I'm quite a big fan of rain and storm gods.
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I favour the sun & moon, their rise and set, the periodicity of the phases of the moon c0inciding with women's menstrual periods, the annual variation of the geographical site of the rise and set of both heavenly bodies etc etc. (Ugge says: "It's getting cold and the sun set over Wolf Hill. Dad always said his dad told him that snow come soon after. Time to leave here and go to valley.") And other such mysteries...
[ This message was edited by: ryszard on 2013-02-19 14:42 ]
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Feanor
Joined:
11-05-2011
Messages: 319
from Cape Cod Massachusetts, US
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| New Message Posted!2013-02-17 07:06
The Diffusionist viewpoint is probably not the correct one.
Strictly speaking, when taken as a single proposition, I think you're right.
But I would argue that the boundaries between cultural evolution and diffusion become fuzzy in a Neolithic context, with some evidence in support of both views.
DNA examination of populations may well play a key role here.
In no particular order of importance:
Tool Development
Social Stability
Food availability/production
Husbandry
Language
Rites/observation of Belief
Environment
Clearly these populations find their ultimate root in an Indo-European 'Diaspora', for lack of a better term. That is, at some point they had to come from somewhere - whether it was in the paleolithic or much later.
They also seem to have, in some cases, leap-frogged over the other. i.e. trade and municipal settings in the Balkans while farming is still the primary resource in Greece.
Farther west, they settled longer, and so developed discrete belief-systems - while still farmers - where in many cases megalithic monuments even took precedence over a centralized 'town'. This infers a cohesive social structure.
The Diffusionist point of view comes into play when we see them fashioning display-metals in the East while stone tools are still in actual use in the West. Copper followed shortly thereafter to be sure - but it Followed.
By the same token, 'Spiritually' the Westerners must have been at least as sophisticated in their beliefs, as evidenced in their unique monuments - things we rarely see in the East at the same date.
So it definitely becomes very complicated in terms of who was where, when. But it's clear that the inhabitants we see in Western Europe were not, ultimately, indigenous people. I have a sense that there were none, and that the 'incomers' simply filled a vacancy.
Neil
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davidmorgan
Joined:
23-11-2006
Messages: 1620
from The New Forest
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| New Message Posted!2013-02-16 16:49
The diffusionist viewpoint is probably not the correct one. See this video:
http://www.webofstories.com/play/18203
Also see the Wikipedia entries on:
Culture-historical archaeology - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture-historical_archaeology
and
Processual archaeology - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Processual_archaeology
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jonm
Joined:
12-07-2011
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from UK
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| New Message Posted!2013-02-15 18:52
I believe it was virtually universal, with the only differences being a specific representation of whatever regional belief-system was in vogue at the time, which in my view was based on the environment.
Couldn't agree more.
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davidmorgan
Joined:
23-11-2006
Messages: 1620
from The New Forest
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| New Message Posted!2013-02-15 18:04
a specific representation of whatever regional belief-system was in vogue at the time, which in my view was based on the environment.
I'm quite a big fan of rain and storm gods.
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Feanor
Joined:
11-05-2011
Messages: 319
from Cape Cod Massachusetts, US
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| New Message Posted!2013-02-15 17:31
Quote:
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... How anyone can believe that humans across the world simply decided to erect megaliths in order for example to trace the agricultural seasons, when most were still hunter-gatherers, is simply nonsensical. There had to be a particularly powerful spiritual proposition behind this unusual development.
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____________________
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There is a volume of evidence that suggests that Hunter/Gatherers did A: Have Spiritual Awareness. B: Erect Megaliths.
There is an enormous amount of commonality in terms of 'Invention' or even 'similar use' across all times and cultures.
Each 'clever invention' would arise from local necessity, rather than from epiphany, with improvements occurring over time.
But statements in Stone are not exclusive to a few. They are virtually universal and exemplify the notion of permanence. It's pretty well documented that Hunter/Gatherers didn't just randomly wander about the countryside, but spent a good deal of their year around a single place, returning to various locations in cycles.
This is almost certainly where the notion of farming comes from.
Over time these locations would become hereditary and were probably imbued with certain significance that were no doubt accorded a spiritual status of some kind.
But piling up a small cone of pebbles or erecting a Statement Stone may not imply a strictly religious connotation, but might include several, not the least is noting where Ugge's Tribe camps for the summer.
This perennial cycle supposes that they probably used wood originally, but as time went on employed the permanence of stone to 'mark their turf', and/or observe a recurring celestial event.
As the Hunter/Gatherers began to settle down into communities this process became more sophisticated.
But I don't think the practice was selective to a few enlightened groups. I believe it was virtually universal, with the only differences being a specific representation of whatever regional belief-system was in vogue at the time, which in my view was based on the environment.
Neil
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davidmorgan
Joined:
23-11-2006
Messages: 1620
from The New Forest
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| New Message Posted!2013-02-15 10:17
There had to be a particularly powerful spiritual proposition behind this unusual development.
Probably as a side effect of the socio-economic advancements that were occurring at the time.
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Elijah
Joined:
21-03-2012
Messages: 86
from Spain
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| New Message Posted!2013-02-12 20:56
Hi Ryszard
It was actually a very important question. How anyone can believe that humans across the world simply decided to erect megaliths in order for example to trace the agricultural seasons, when most were still hunter-gatherers, is simply nonsensical. There had to be a particularly powerful spiritual proposition behind this unusual development.
John
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ryszard
Joined:
16-10-2003
Messages: 53
from Canada
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| New Message Posted!2013-02-12 04:59
Quote:
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On 2013-02-10 08:59, jonm wrote:
Quote:
| I think this thread has become a little entangled. I propose that both ryszard and Elijah should start again with new threads where each can present their own ideas. |
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I agree. I am very confused by this thread: Probably best to abandon it and split into two.
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I had only a vague idea of cultural spread preceding any hard (pun intended) evidence of it such as stones. I threw it out there, badly phrased, to learn what people thought of it. I have learned that. No need for another thread.
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Elijah
Joined:
21-03-2012
Messages: 86
from Spain
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| New Message Posted!2013-02-10 11:03
See new thread - The sacrificial origins of religion and its edifices, etc.
John
[ This message was edited by: Andy B on 2013-02-10 15:02 ]
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