Featured Title:
Cave Of Forgotten Dreams on DVD |
 |
| The Megalithic European |
 |
| Login |
|
Don't have an account yet? You can create one. As a registered user you have some advantages like your own home page, fewer ads, and your contributions link to your page. |
| Who's Online |
There are currently, 136 guests and 9 members online.
You are a guest. To join in, please register for free by clicking here |
| |
| Review your Reply |
tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2644
 ON-Line
|  New Message Posted!2013-05-13 15:27
Norman , a couple of comments . The beast is not always standard as it's back can be straight or sloping .The direction in which it faces is more consistent on Class 1 stones ,as mentioned earlier , "There is quite a big difference between Class 1 and 2 in the direction the Beasts head faces , in Class 1 only 2 or 8% face left whilst in Class 2 it is 62% ."
The double disc has similarities with a relatively common motif in earlier rock art the "dumb bell " where two cup marks are connected with a groove .
George
|
enorm
Joined:
07-01-2010
Messages: 35
from Kent
 OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-05-13 13:30
Hi Iain - I agree with you that the hunting scene on Shandwick has astronomical and astrological interpretations and these fit in well with Mithraism and, therefore, Pictish Mithraism. I identified several carvings that are seen on other Stones - a creature eating, stag, interlaced animals, beast with exaggerated claws etc (all identified instances referenced on my web site). The Pictish Beast faces to the left - only a third of the 51 I have found face left - not sure if there is any significance in this; the shape of them is "standard". There is an indistinct Double Disc (there are 18 of these on the Stones that broadly follow a general pattern split almost 50/50 between those that have the "waisted" effect on the inter-connecting lines and those that are straight parallel lines. Shandwick is a Class 2 Stone covering the "transition" between Pictish Mithraism and Christianity. This makes me wonder if the Double Disc specifically without the Z-Rod suggests some sort of "transition" as well (with the absence of Cautes and Cautopates symbolism i.e the "arms" of the Z) but this is maybe a flimsy interpretation as there are Double Discs alone on Class 1s also.
Regards - Norman
|
enorm
Joined:
07-01-2010
Messages: 35
from Kent
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-04-10 10:28
Hi Iain – I intended to reply earlier but have been updating my web site to reflect conclusions from Annexe 1 (whose investigations were prompted by debate on this forum). My latest proposal regarding the Z-Rod and Double Disc is a new post.
It is fundamentally different!! Norman
|
iainforbespict
Joined:
20-08-2012
Messages: 3
from Edinburgh, Scotland
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-03-29 14:16
Hi Norman
Thanks for your posts. Yes, as you say our research, although approaching the problem from different angles, seems to point to the same thing - an astrological/celestial function for the symbols. I've had a quick look at your website and it is excellent. Very refreshing to have someone else challenging the old dogma of names, heraldic devices etc etc. Have you looked at some of the scenes on some of the stones, for example the hunting scene on the Shandwick stone to see if their could be mithraic imagery?
It seems to me that revealing an astrological and therefore astronomical function to the symbols completely revolutionises our thinking about the Picts and their achievements!
Iain
|
enorm
Joined:
07-01-2010
Messages: 35
from Kent
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-03-26 12:40
Iain – reference your 20 March post, I think there is a mix of astronomical/astrological symbolism – some planets, some constellations that are zodiacal (others maybe not) and probably some specific stars (albeit ones that are parts of constellations). In my original research I listed all the components of a typical Mithraic Tauroctony (e.g. Dog, Raven, Snake etc) and found their celestial counterparts. I have added these to my web site as Annexe 2 at http://pictish-mithraism.com/page47.php
From your investigations and propositions in your book do you think these line up? Mybe our interpretations are not too far apart!
Thanks - Norman
Appendices & Annexes
|
enorm
Joined:
07-01-2010
Messages: 35
from Kent
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-03-26 10:49
Cropredy - a very interesting article, thanks, that sparked more reading about Druids for me. I do not see them as the pre-Christian religious “leaders” in Pictland – it looks as if their influence extended to probably West Scotland (Dal Riata) but not much further East / North East. Do you have any ideas on who could have been the “religious leaders” in Pictland?
Norman
|
enorm
Joined:
07-01-2010
Messages: 35
from Kent
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-03-25 09:25
Iain – thanks for your input and over a series of posts I hope we can generate a further debate. I have just bought your book – very interesting and I do not think our approaches are too far apart; more comment once I have read more!
Going back to my propositions being “religious” as such, the Mysteries of Mithras are linked to the astronomy and astrology as understood and in use at the time. The earth was considered to be at the centre of the universe with the planets (including the sun and moon giving 7 planets – and “7” was important in Roman Mithraism) rotating around the earth in one direction and the firmament rotating in the opposite direction. This is easy to represent in two dimensions as a dot and two concentric circles –hence my views about Z-Rod and Double Disc symbolism. A three dimensional view would still have the earth at the centre but with a more sophisticated representation of the planets and firmament as two open structured spheres complete with the zodiac, both ecliptic and celestial equators and tilt on the axis.
The original Mithras beliefs surfaced about 2000 years before Roman Mithraism and David Ulansey has made some connections between the, then, constellation positions and the Taurocotony. Just as you have considered the skyward view of 1300 years ago, it is important to understand the relative positions of several constellations such that the Tauroctony occurred at a particular time of the year and has in its component constellations both the bull (Taurus) and Mithras (seen as Perseus above Taurus). So, for the Tauroctony to occur at the spring equinox the astronomical and astrological alignments need to apply to the so-called Age of Taurus (we currently are in the Age of Pisces) – about 4000 years ago. However, this connection with the “earlier” Mithras may be misleading as there is an argument that Roman Mithraism was maybe based on the Persian version but not a direct descendant of it. That said, Roman statues of Mithras do relate to the Tauroctony but that linkage forward to what I have called Pictish Mithraism may have disconnects too.
Mithras is shown in the Tauroctony with a figure on either side – often referred to as his companions. Looking towards the Tauroctony to the viewers left is Cautes (representing the morning star and spring equinox) and to the right Cautopates (representing the evening star and autumn equinox). Relative to Mithras Cautes is on his right and Cautopates on his left.
Other astronomical and astrological linkages can be made to Mithraism. For example, Taurus and Scorpius are in opposing sectors (around 180° apart) as, in effect, are Cautes and Cautopates when representing the equinoxes (which are 180° apart). The equinoxes in the past would have been in Taurus and Scorpius – which are symbolised in the Tauroctony by the bull’s head and the scorpion. Hence my decodes for the Z-Rod and Double Disc with the “arms” being the torches held by Cautes and Cautopates.
What I find fascinating is that no-one (apart from me) has so far picked up on the “waisting” effect of the curved lines by the midline of the “Z”. Taking these with the circles one can visualise a bisected solid annulus (a cut through dough-ring whereby both exposed parts of the cross sections are the same). Maybe this representation reflects a view that may have been held of a “contained” universe with its three key points (at the time) – earth in the middle, moving planets and fixed firmament.
What do you think?
Norman
|
cropredy
Joined:
01-01-2006
Messages: 5535
from Oxon
ON-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-03-22 20:19
Interesting??, nes pas??
http://www.lablit.com/article/341
cropredy
|
tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2644
ON-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-03-22 12:31
Enorm , yes the hippocamp was probably a Roman influence . The christian Ketos and other beasts were often used in later sculptures on either sides of cross shafts ,Isobel Henderson considered them to to play a protective role .The reason I mentioned it though is because it is closer stylistically to the Sea Goat than the Beast . The three major symbols CV ,DDZ , Beast , are the most difficult to source .
George
|
enorm
Joined:
07-01-2010
Messages: 35
from Kent
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-03-22 11:16
George – my revised Annexe is accessible from http://79.170.44.131/pictish-mithraism.com/page47.php
I am not surprised by your comments of 20 March as I have had a great difficulty in trying to decode the Pictish Beast. Indeed there are several “structural” differences but I have found with the Symbols that there are elements of deeper coding probably done to deliberately obscure the meaning to non-initiates. I mention hippocamps in the annexe – they are Class 2 carvings often intertwined (a style seen also in Norway – doorway examples in the cast court of the V&A, London) or opposing pairs. More significantly the hippocamps being Class 2 arguably come from a later time for Pictish Symbol Stones maybe with a Christian context; whereas the Pictish Beast is on both Class 1 and 2 Stones. A further complication arises as hippocamps are recorded as far back as 600 BCE.
Regards - Norman
Appendices & Annexe
| |
|
Main News