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Forum: Stones Forum
Moderated by : Andy B , TimPrevett , coldrum , Klingon , MickM , TheCaptain , bat400 , davidmorgan , Runemage , SolarMegalith , sem
Respond to: Prehistoric Monuments of Dartmoor
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davep
Joined:
05-07-2009
Messages: 28
from Exeter
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|  New Message Posted!2012-12-26 14:14
Whilst researching an article on stone rows I was reading through R.N. Worth's series of reports on The Stone Rows of Dartmoor and stumbled across this in 5th report from 1896.
Quote:
| Ramsley.
There is absolute evidence of the existence of stone rows at Ramsley, above South Zeal. They were destroyed some five-and-twenty years ago for works in connection with the Ramsley Mine, and only a few of the smaller and less important stones remain. Mr. George French, who was working at Ramsley at the time, recollects their existence. A circle called ''Eight Stones" also stood on the shoulder of the Moor above Sticklepath. The stones varied from eight feet in height to six feet ; and the circle was destroyed when the surrounding part of the down was enclosed. |
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See:
The Stone Rows of Dartmoor - 5th Report 1896
The account here suggests that the former site of Eight Stones is either within, or very close to, the enclosures nearer to Sticklepath. This may fit in with it being a separate site to the one under discussion here as I believe we are discussing an area further to the west.
The name George French crops up in an earlier report as having "discovered" the Watern Hill (Hurston Ridge) stone row (although it was in fact described earlier by Rowe). This would suggest he may have been a reliable source.
See:
The Stone Rows of Dartmoor - 3rd Report 1894
PS. Edit added: George French was actively involved in the Dartmoor Exploration Committee - one of the people involved in the large scale excavations of hut circles.
[ This message was edited by: davep on 2012-12-26 14:31 ]
[ This message was edited by: davep on 2012-12-26 15:19 ]
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TheCaptain
Joined:
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Messages: 1491
from near Bristol
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| New Message Posted!2012-11-13 12:46
When I was looking into this all those years ago, I came to the conclusion that Sticklepath circle and 8 rocks were probably two different places, which had become confused with each other only since destruction. I think it is likely that the two places are not the same.
Another thing I must say, is that the first time I was here, I was not looking for a circle or anything, but just out for a walk with friends, and happened to walk by here. While walking up the hill, I was instantly struck by the standing stone as it came into view (I cannot find any reference to any more modern boundary markers here), and the flat plateau where it is standing, and then others seemed to appear. Myself and friend both started to think "stone circle", but only had very little time to keep up with the others.
So, several years later, I came back for another look, and again was instantly taken to the place.
It would be nice to have another opinion !
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davep
Joined:
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Messages: 28
from Exeter
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| New Message Posted!2012-11-12 20:13
Hi Captain
Fascinating photos. I presume from the use of GPS that the OS grid reference is accurate SX63439264. We are talking about a bit of a "plateau" on the northern slope almost exactly 1km north of Cosdon Beacon trig point (slighly to the west).
A bit hard to tell but from the photos it looks to me that this is an object with a large diameter. It is very rare for Darmoor cairns to have diameters greater than 20m. This looks bigger.
I have checked Grinsell's and Turner's listings and nothing fits for that location.
Butler refers to a cairn Cosdon Hill N.4 SX63359246 Volume 2 Map 40.9. (cairn 9) which is located between the fork of two reaves. But I see you located this and it is a distinctive and typical cairn looking structure, see:
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=22695
This is:
HER for Cairn 9
Checking the Historical environment Records I do see reference to settlements and enclosures:
Open settlement, consisting of ten hut circles, visible in a field system around the cosdon north reave (SX 635 924), see:
MDV27425 - Open Settlement
Field system visible around the cosdon north reave on the northern slopes of cawsand hill (SX 634 924), see:
MDV27426 - Field System
Remains of what may have been two enclosures, or one agglomerated enclosure (SX 631 926), see:
MDV27422 - Two Eclosures
Ovoid enclosure visible containing one hut circle (SX 632 923), see:
MDV27423 - Ovoid Enclosure
On the National Monument Records, there is also a reference to a settlement (SX 635 924):
NMR SX 69 SW 124 (open settelement)
There are other NMR reords one of which is for an enclosure in the vicinity - presunmably the same as the HER above.
The reference to an alledged old stone circle that disappeared in 1884 is here (SX 6360 9323):
NMR SX 69 SW 4 - Site of Possible Destroyed Stone Circle
It states an unsourced source:
Quote:
| About 50 years ago (i.e. 1874) there was a small circle
of very large stones standing above Sticklepath, below Cawsand.
All destroyed now. |
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Conclusion: I don't know! I might try getting out that way some time - will probably have to wait to the Spring. I suspect what is showig up is remains of an enclosure. Old claims for stone circles can be unreliable - mistaken identification of other strutures but who knows! Also if you check the link in one of my posts above for the article about stone circles I mention a curious arc of stone circles sparated by about 2km. This location is approx 2km north of Little Hound Tor stone circle.
PS (edit added). Butler points out that stones can disappear and for that matter reappear - they sink in the peat and conversely if the peat dries or becomes more drained they can reappear. So an old lost site could have sank rather than be robbed out and could become visible again.
PPS. Just seen approx 30m for diameter - that is just above average stone circle size. So size is right as is the levelish location. Also just seen the NMR record for Eight Rocks - seems to be a reference to the same item on the NMR above.
NMR - Eight Rocks
[ This message was edited by: davep on 2012-11-12 23:37 ]
[ This message was edited by: davep on 2012-11-12 23:39 ]
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TheCaptain
Joined:
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Messages: 1491
from near Bristol
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| New Message Posted!2012-11-12 13:03
Dave.
Shooting off in a separate sideline, you seem to be a local man with much more detailed knowledge than me.
Have you any thoughts on what I thought I discovered several years ago, and included here on the megalithic portal as Sticklepath stone circle, which I think I may have refound.
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=22693
Have you ever been for a look?
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tiompan
Joined:
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Messages: 2708
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| New Message Posted!2012-11-12 10:05
Dave .If those monuments with obvious encircled cairns like ring cairns , kerb cairns etc are removed from the count how do we define those open stone rings that have buried funerary deposits only brought to light through excavation ?
George
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davep
Joined:
05-07-2009
Messages: 28
from Exeter
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| New Message Posted!2012-11-12 00:16
Hi George,
"True" comes from me in the post above - I was simply using in the sense of "actually" a stone circle as opposed to a monument that is often referred to as a stone circle but generally is not considered to be one. Apols if that has caused some confusion.
The context here is claims of over a 1000 stone circles which appears to originate from Burl's The Stone Circles of the British Isles (1976). Burl later in A Guide to the Stone Circles of Britain, Ireland and Brittany (1995) refers to 368 stone circles in the British Isles. Presumably Burl was using a stricter definition of stone circle later on - but even then of the 21 listed for Dartmoor, 13 of which would be considered cairn circles.
So the problem was, I was trying to estimate the number of stone circles in the British Isles using a stricter defintion of what counts as a stone circle. I cant put a figure on it and was wondering if anyone can.
Of authorative writers it was Burl and Turner who gave figures of around 30-40 stone circles on Dartmoor. To be fair to Turner he started the process of trying to properly classify cairns which was very useful - if not universally adopted. [The problem with Dartmoor cairns is that they have a largely local character - quite different to other parts of the country]
However, even in more modern times Phil Newman and Sandy Gerrard class the Yellowmead and Shovel Down Fourfold Circles as stone circles when I think most others would refer to them as cairn circles.
PS. The generally accepted figure for Dartmoor is 15 (including the recently discovered Tottiford and counting the Grey Wethers as 2 circles).
[ This message was edited by: davep on 2012-11-12 00:40 ]
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tiompan
Joined:
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Messages: 2708
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| New Message Posted!2012-11-11 23:34
Thanks Dave , Sousonns , Belstone are dscribed as Ring cairns and Erme as a round barrow with retaining circle on Pastscape whilst Burl describes Sousonns asa cairn circle and Belstone as a ring cairn . There certainly is a distinction between ring cairns ,kerb cairns ,barrows and stone circles as is noted by the pastscape and other authoritative descriptions but I was more concerned with the use of the term “ true “ . Does Phil Newman use the term to distinguish between the various categories ?
There are plenty of examples of stone circles that do not encircle obvious funerary monuments but there may well be funerary or other deposits within the monument . In the case of Scorhil ,it has never been excavated and it could well have funerary associations . The Grey Wethers was excavated and like Fernworthy , Brisworthy and other local stone circles they had been built on deposits of charcoal or encircled the sites of fires . Is it possible that the idea and use of the term stems from Turner ? .
George
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davep
Joined:
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Messages: 28
from Exeter
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| New Message Posted!2012-11-11 20:14
George wrote:
Quote:
| Dave , could you define a " true " stone circle and give some examples please ?
Usually terms associated with stone circles are informative ,recumbent , axial , embanked , four poster etc but " true " isn't and is loaded . I've never seen it it used by authorities either |
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I'm using a definition for prehistoric monuments along these lines:
Quote:
| defined as monuments that have no obvious funerary purpose and that stand alone as a circle of stones. |
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Phil Newman in the The Field Archaeology of Dartmoor suggests that the stones of a cairn circle are designed to bound and contain the cairn whereas the stones of a stone circle are intended to be permeable to allow physical access to the interior as well as visible access to the landscape outside. So we are talking different purposes for the monuments.
An example of a cairn circle often referred to as a stone circle is Soussons Common on Dartmoor (it has a cist burial in the centre).
Soussons Common "Stone Circle"
The Nine Stones on Belstone Common is another cairn monument and as such not a "true" stone circle (it is obviously a burial monument).
Nine Stones - Belstone Common
Another would be the rather beautiful Erme Circle, (The Dancers or Stall Moor circle) - which is attached to a stone row and is probably a cairn.
Erme Circle
Scorhill is an exampel of a "true" stone circle on Dartmoor.
Scorhill Stone Circle
as is the Grey Wethers
Grey Wethers Sone Circles
I give Dartmoor examples as that is what I know best!
There is definitely a distinction made between cairn monuments and stone circles in the literature on Dartmoor going back to R H Worth although some authors stray from this.
[ This message was edited by: davep on 2012-11-11 20:16 ]
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tiompan
Joined:
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Messages: 2708
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| New Message Posted!2012-11-11 17:14
Dave , could you define a " true " stone circle and give some examples please ?
Usually terms associated with stone circles are informative ,recumbent , axial , embanked , four poster etc but " true " isn't and is loaded . I've never seen it it used by authorities either
George
Quote:
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On 2012-11-10 20:33, davep wrote:
Incidently, I wrote something on Dartmoor stone circles many months back which might be of interest to peeps here. See:
Guide to Dartmoor Stone Circles
I did come across a curious problem when putting this together and that was trying to answer the question; how many stone circles are there in Britain? By stone circles I mean true stone circles - that is not cairn circles or other burial monuments.
Numbers are often quoted as around a 1000 or more but I think this is largely based on a figure from Burl that inclues cairn circles. He later reduced this to 368. See this footnote:
Footnote on Burl figures for stone circles.
I gave a non-committal "a few hundred". Are there any authorative figures - or does this depend whose definition and who you ask?
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davep
Joined:
05-07-2009
Messages: 28
from Exeter
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| New Message Posted!2012-11-10 20:33
Incidently, I wrote something on Dartmoor stone circles many months back which might be of interest to peeps here. See:
Guide to Dartmoor Stone Circles
I did come across a curious problem when putting this together and that was trying to answer the question; how many stone circles are there in Britain? By stone circles I mean true stone circles - that is not cairn circles or other burial monuments.
Numbers are often quoted as around a 1000 or more but I think this is largely based on a figure from Burl that inclues cairn circles. He later reduced this to 368. See this footnote:
Footnote on Burl figures for stone circles.
I gave a non-committal "a few hundred". Are there any authorative figures - or does this depend whose definition and who you ask?
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