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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2641
 OFF-Line
|  New Message Posted!2013-05-20 18:17
“I have said repeatably that I can pass any test set relative to that which is detectable. “
Anyone can say that they can pass tests if what is detectable is unrecordable . What you can't do and what other dowsers claim to be able to do is detect “stuff “
“ Your the one that is stopping all debate”
Debate means discussing differing views , I'm more than happy to discuss ,you seem more concerned about not hearing any dissent of unsupported claims .
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cropredy
Joined:
01-01-2006
Messages: 5527
from Oxon
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-05-20 17:36
You old sunshine can stay as sceptical as You like.
But You never stop from going over the sceptical frontier into absolute and none stop as fact statements that dowsing doesn't work.
What dowsers are reporting is first hand/s personal detections, and I have said repeatably that I can pass any test set relative to that which is detectable.
I will not have anything to do with garbage stupid tests set by those who can't dowse , and demand nonesensical tests that just lead to ridicule.
Your the one that is stopping all debate, You are the troll.
I have been asked to stop posting as much on here as reguler posters are complaining.
Well this is Me complaining in the open, not by PMs to Andy...out in the open .
You are a zealot, with a clear agenda that never stops. In almost every post about dowsing You throw in references that show Your agenda clearly.
What is baffling is that this section of the portal forum is supposed to be for those who dowse etc etc etc, if it is not then why is it stated as such????
I am sick and tired of Your never ending demands for proff.
YOU prove the existance of god .
cropredy
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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2641
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-05-20 17:17
It is not a question of demanding proof that fits a belief system , any proof will do . And we have plenty to show that dowsers don't actually manage to do what they claim . The belief system belongs to those who simply believe without question unsupported claims like ,“ Dowsing is a natural sense, that the more sensitive utilise to interact with a vast array of signals present. Many of those signals are consequences of the universe , and in particular the solar system .”
These type of comments explain why you find it “impossible to debate “
That is not debating , it is merely making ,in the quoted example , five unsupported statements .
A debate involves two or more views with an expectation that any view expressed as factual can be questioned and if nothing is forthcoming to support the view we can remain sceptical about it's validity until shown otherwise .
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vlad
Joined:
13-05-2006
Messages: 1288
from Stockholm
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-05-20 16:54
My 5 years` old son-daughter Sophie says - "Do not explain this to me, I know everything already." But as I`ve said before, it`s not worth public money to hear that we`ll be knowing 5% of reality all the time, because of the "steady broadening horizons". So what about those 95 per cent; are there no mysteries in it!?
Ignorants present intuition as magic, while it is the modern science, which deserves this name. According to the original Egyptian meaning of the word, magic is replacing God (or gods) in wielding the ultimate tools of creation and annihilation. And today those tools are used by unqualified selfish people in the scale of the whole globe.
But what the heck, kevin. "Summertime and the living is easy. Fish are jumping and the cotton is high..." Yea; take your guitar and play something. Just align to the Sun.
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2013-05-20 16:55 ]
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cropredy
Joined:
01-01-2006
Messages: 5527
from Oxon
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-05-20 13:39
Is it worth ever looking again at this site , as it is simply been used by a troll to constantly denounce dowsing???
Dowsing is a natural sense, that the more sensitive utilise to interact with a vast array of signals present.
Many of those signals are consequences of the universe , and in particuler the solar system We are part of, but it is impossible to debate about the consequences as detected upon here without the troll constantly denouncing anything and demanding proof that fits into the trolls belief system.
If this is allowed to continue ,I can only assume it suits the owner and moderators views?
cropredy
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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2641
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-05-20 12:27
Tom , yes ,dowsing is defined as a magical practice because that it was it is and was . No need for “ witching, using devilish ways to achieve their ends, I can just see these cloaked figures now, evil eyes shining through “ magical thinking is what normal people do all the time . It doesn't make it right or nefarious .
Some q's . What is the rough area the design ? how many markers are used for the five petals ? Where is the shape found ? Do others find the same shape at the same place ? If so , were the others aware of the design and how was it confirmed that their findings replicated yours in design and location or vice versa ?
I never described dowsing as an art .
As mentioned a few times dowsing for specific “stuff “ has been tested often enough under conditions acceptable to both dowsers and testers and dowsers never manage to achieve results better than chance . Hers's a recent not very strict example but typical .http://www.uiowa.edu/~osa/burials/Dowsing.pdf .
Avoiding the pitfalls of failing to find recordable stuff only means that it is not only more difficult to prove the negative it is also equally difficult to prove the positive and in such cases the burden of proof is upon the claimant .
Yes cymatics are great fun , repeatable ,predictable and explicable and one of the phenomena investigated by early scientists , which in no way detracts from the wonder and if anything adds to it .
George
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ledgehammer
Joined:
29-06-2011
Messages: 724
from Surrey
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-05-20 11:24
Quote:
| Tom ,
Dowsing is and was a divinatory practice .If you scroll down from the source of your quote you will notice that dowsing is listed under “Varieties of magical practice “ .
It's difficult to prove a negative ,how do prove something unrecordable does not exist or that Nigel Farage is not the tooth fairy ? In these cases the burden of proof is upon the claimant .It is up to dowsers to prove that they can do the business if they want to be believed .It's an old chestnut but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence . However , dowsing has been tested and failed regularly , how else do you suggest it might be shown to “work” ?
George |
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George,
It may be defined as "magic", this doesn't have any bearing on its application although very interesting to see the history of this debate - I get the feeling our ancestors had the same arguments, except in a religious connotation. More a technicality than an explanation, where as labelling and categorising doesn't really investigate the art does it.
I stand by my point in that this has no bearing about dowsing itself, personally If there were a group who considered dowsing to be very useful, we would have this same debate, and opinions around dowsing being a form of witching, using devilish ways to achieve their ends, I can just see these cloaked figures now, evil eyes shining through 
In this case I have offered numerous data around my personal dowsing, in response we have had quotes around tests where dowsing doesn't work, surely in this case George its up to you to provide data that dowsing doesn't work?
In addition to this the questions around how could I ensure that what i am detecting is outside of my creation still haven't been addressed. When mapping geometric shapes through dowsing, theres a massive correlation of works that correspond, and this is by no means me alone. To label dowsing as a creative art (in its entirety), is not accurate with any of this data.
To simply say its a construct of my own imagination is giving me far to much credit, especially when I knew nothing of these patterns when I began to dowse, now its very apparent. Are you sure that nature isn't complex enough to create these patterns, are you absolutely convinced this is a creating of the dowsers / individual or community?
Cymatics
Best
Tom
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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2641
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 14:00
Quite ,we all know what IMO 's mean.
And also expect something substantial following a “You are completely lost with your argumentation “ .
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vlad
Joined:
13-05-2006
Messages: 1288
from Stockholm
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 13:02
Imos for imos is not worth discussion any more. There are many different people on Earth and remodelling them into my likeliness is not my life`s intention. I align rather with the Sun, again.
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2013-05-19 14:17 ]
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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2641
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 12:42
After a comment like “You are completely lost with your argumentation “ You might expect a reasoned argument to follow pointing out mistakes , using quotes ,etc from the earlier discussion . But there are no refutations or quotes and a complete evasion of the content of the previous post . Just an “IMO “ . Even the “I agree that nowadays magic doesn`t exist “ is misleading and wrong . I never said or suggested that magic didn't exist today . The post you were replying to was disagreeing with your views on , intuition , magic ,magical thinking ,religious ritual as magic/magical thinking ,maybe you can comment on that before losing the point .
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