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Pictures from the Past: Art and Symbols of the Neolithic and Bronze Age |
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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2639
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|  New Message Posted!2013-05-20 12:27
Tom , yes ,dowsing is defined as a magical practice because that it was it is and was . No need for “ witching, using devilish ways to achieve their ends, I can just see these cloaked figures now, evil eyes shining through “ magical thinking is what normal people do all the time . It doesn't make it right or nefarious .
Some q's . What is the rough area the design ? how many markers are used for the five petals ? Where is the shape found ? Do others find the same shape at the same place ? If so , were the others aware of the design and how was it confirmed that their findings replicated yours in design and location or vice versa ?
I never described dowsing as an art .
As mentioned a few times dowsing for specific “stuff “ has been tested often enough under conditions acceptable to both dowsers and testers and dowsers never manage to achieve results better than chance . Hers's a recent not very strict example but typical .http://www.uiowa.edu/~osa/burials/Dowsing.pdf .
Avoiding the pitfalls of failing to find recordable stuff only means that it is not only more difficult to prove the negative it is also equally difficult to prove the positive and in such cases the burden of proof is upon the claimant .
Yes cymatics are great fun , repeatable ,predictable and explicable and one of the phenomena investigated by early scientists , which in no way detracts from the wonder and if anything adds to it .
George
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ledgehammer
Joined:
29-06-2011
Messages: 724
from Surrey
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-20 11:24
Quote:
| Tom ,
Dowsing is and was a divinatory practice .If you scroll down from the source of your quote you will notice that dowsing is listed under “Varieties of magical practice “ .
It's difficult to prove a negative ,how do prove something unrecordable does not exist or that Nigel Farage is not the tooth fairy ? In these cases the burden of proof is upon the claimant .It is up to dowsers to prove that they can do the business if they want to be believed .It's an old chestnut but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence . However , dowsing has been tested and failed regularly , how else do you suggest it might be shown to “work” ?
George |
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George,
It may be defined as "magic", this doesn't have any bearing on its application although very interesting to see the history of this debate - I get the feeling our ancestors had the same arguments, except in a religious connotation. More a technicality than an explanation, where as labelling and categorising doesn't really investigate the art does it.
I stand by my point in that this has no bearing about dowsing itself, personally If there were a group who considered dowsing to be very useful, we would have this same debate, and opinions around dowsing being a form of witching, using devilish ways to achieve their ends, I can just see these cloaked figures now, evil eyes shining through 
In this case I have offered numerous data around my personal dowsing, in response we have had quotes around tests where dowsing doesn't work, surely in this case George its up to you to provide data that dowsing doesn't work?
In addition to this the questions around how could I ensure that what i am detecting is outside of my creation still haven't been addressed. When mapping geometric shapes through dowsing, theres a massive correlation of works that correspond, and this is by no means me alone. To label dowsing as a creative art (in its entirety), is not accurate with any of this data.
To simply say its a construct of my own imagination is giving me far to much credit, especially when I knew nothing of these patterns when I began to dowse, now its very apparent. Are you sure that nature isn't complex enough to create these patterns, are you absolutely convinced this is a creating of the dowsers / individual or community?
Cymatics
Best
Tom
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tiompan
Joined:
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Messages: 2639
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 14:00
Quite ,we all know what IMO 's mean.
And also expect something substantial following a “You are completely lost with your argumentation “ .
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vlad
Joined:
13-05-2006
Messages: 1287
from Stockholm
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 13:02
Imos for imos is not worth discussion any more. There are many different people on Earth and remodelling them into my likeliness is not my life`s intention. I align rather with the Sun, again.
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2013-05-19 14:17 ]
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tiompan
Joined:
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Messages: 2639
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 12:42
After a comment like “You are completely lost with your argumentation “ You might expect a reasoned argument to follow pointing out mistakes , using quotes ,etc from the earlier discussion . But there are no refutations or quotes and a complete evasion of the content of the previous post . Just an “IMO “ . Even the “I agree that nowadays magic doesn`t exist “ is misleading and wrong . I never said or suggested that magic didn't exist today . The post you were replying to was disagreeing with your views on , intuition , magic ,magical thinking ,religious ritual as magic/magical thinking ,maybe you can comment on that before losing the point .
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vlad
Joined:
13-05-2006
Messages: 1287
from Stockholm
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 12:19
You are completely lost with your argumentation. IMO Magic can be discussed only in historical contexts, within the history (and prehistory) of ideas. I agree that nowadays magic doesn`t exist, with the only exception for literature, music, painting and other arts. That`s the area, where the old decent Egyptian definition perhaps still functions, performing changes to human psyche, which are further resulting in changing ways of the material world. Now, megalithic constructions are materializations of prehistorical ideologies, which are not a part of our modern worldview anymore. Quoting some old symbolic systems and trying to fit them to those remnants - has nothing to do with magic. It`s a practical exercise of a historian of ideas.
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tiompan
Joined:
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Messages: 2639
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 11:41
It seems aggressive illogical ignorants don't understand that skilled people use their their intuition all the time , it works , and is the way nearly everyone operates and is not the same as practising magic .
Religious rituals involve magical thinking ,and many of it's proponents imposed their will and outlawed the less organised magical thinkers . Non magical thinkers /sceptics pointed out that witches and other cunning (wo)men didn't/couldn't actually do the stuff believed by the organised magical thinkers , as it was all nonsense .As a result they were also stigmatised .
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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2639
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 11:36
Tom ,
Dowsing is and was a divinatory practice .If you scroll down from the source of your quote you will notice that dowsing is listed under “Varieties of magical practice “ .
It's difficult to prove a negative ,how do prove something unrecordable does not exist or that Nigel Farage is not the tooth fairy ? In these cases the burden of proof is upon the claimant .It is up to dowsers to prove that they can do the business if they want to be believed .It's an old chestnut but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence . However , dowsing has been tested and failed regularly , how else do you suggest it might be shown to “work” ?
George
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2013-05-19 12:21 ]
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vlad
Joined:
13-05-2006
Messages: 1287
from Stockholm
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 10:39
All agressive ignorants in history accused people, who trained and used their intuition, of being magicians. But in the broadest sense, all acts of individual will, unless dictated by God, - were magic, actually. Consequently; religious rituals, if not coming from a God-inspired founder of a religion, - could have been also treated as magic.
In ancient Egypt, magic (hheka) was the original tool of gods, used for transformation of the material and/or spiritual worlds. Then, in the Egyptian satiric literature comes to life a well-known personage of a magician looking for the Seventh Book of Thoth containing the strongest creation and annihilation formulas. Most of the Christian prejudices against magic come from the last centuries of ìndependent Egypt`s existence, when a real fight on magical formulas was being held among commoners.
It has nothing to do with dowsing, which is neither about creation nor annihilation. It`s only a method of detecting subtle energies in the environment, without any attempts to change them, I suppose. Finding "things" by dowsing is based on trained intuition of a dowser rather than something else.
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2013-05-19 14:15 ]
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ledgehammer
Joined:
29-06-2011
Messages: 724
from Surrey
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 09:37
So much information has been offered here around dowsing, some of which are personal observations / experiences, The definition of magic:
Quote:
| Magic is the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation, ceremony, ritual, the casting of spells or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature |
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Note "desired effect", this could be showing the location of something via using the forces of nature, technically George is right.
The piece he quoted maybe a representation of the duality around skeptisim and dowsing, except in this time there was a religious element associated with this perception.
He never tried dowsing by his own admission so I don't feel he's qualified to offer anything to this debate, the mythology doesn't have a bearing on work probing into the phenomena.
stating that dowsing is a divinatory art would be dismissed by most modern religions as non so, all we are dealing with here is the way dowsing has been viewed, in superstitious terms due to the perceptions at that time.
Have you got data to back up that dowsing doesn't work, that subtle energies do not exist, and are undetectable if they may do. Simply palming off on this superstitious account of things doesn't have any bearing what so ever.
Best
Tom
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