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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2638
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|  New Message Posted!2013-05-19 14:00
Quite ,we all know what IMO 's mean.
And also expect something substantial following a “You are completely lost with your argumentation “ .
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vlad
Joined:
13-05-2006
Messages: 1287
from Stockholm
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 13:02
Imos for imos is not worth discussion any more. There are many different people on Earth and remodelling them into my likeliness is not my life`s intention. I align rather with the Sun, again.
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2013-05-19 14:17 ]
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tiompan
Joined:
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 12:42
After a comment like “You are completely lost with your argumentation “ You might expect a reasoned argument to follow pointing out mistakes , using quotes ,etc from the earlier discussion . But there are no refutations or quotes and a complete evasion of the content of the previous post . Just an “IMO “ . Even the “I agree that nowadays magic doesn`t exist “ is misleading and wrong . I never said or suggested that magic didn't exist today . The post you were replying to was disagreeing with your views on , intuition , magic ,magical thinking ,religious ritual as magic/magical thinking ,maybe you can comment on that before losing the point .
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vlad
Joined:
13-05-2006
Messages: 1287
from Stockholm
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 12:19
You are completely lost with your argumentation. IMO Magic can be discussed only in historical contexts, within the history (and prehistory) of ideas. I agree that nowadays magic doesn`t exist, with the only exception for literature, music, painting and other arts. That`s the area, where the old decent Egyptian definition perhaps still functions, performing changes to human psyche, which are further resulting in changing ways of the material world. Now, megalithic constructions are materializations of prehistorical ideologies, which are not a part of our modern worldview anymore. Quoting some old symbolic systems and trying to fit them to those remnants - has nothing to do with magic. It`s a practical exercise of a historian of ideas.
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tiompan
Joined:
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Messages: 2638
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 11:41
It seems aggressive illogical ignorants don't understand that skilled people use their their intuition all the time , it works , and is the way nearly everyone operates and is not the same as practising magic .
Religious rituals involve magical thinking ,and many of it's proponents imposed their will and outlawed the less organised magical thinkers . Non magical thinkers /sceptics pointed out that witches and other cunning (wo)men didn't/couldn't actually do the stuff believed by the organised magical thinkers , as it was all nonsense .As a result they were also stigmatised .
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tiompan
Joined:
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 11:36
Tom ,
Dowsing is and was a divinatory practice .If you scroll down from the source of your quote you will notice that dowsing is listed under “Varieties of magical practice “ .
It's difficult to prove a negative ,how do prove something unrecordable does not exist or that Nigel Farage is not the tooth fairy ? In these cases the burden of proof is upon the claimant .It is up to dowsers to prove that they can do the business if they want to be believed .It's an old chestnut but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence . However , dowsing has been tested and failed regularly , how else do you suggest it might be shown to “work” ?
George
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2013-05-19 12:21 ]
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vlad
Joined:
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Messages: 1287
from Stockholm
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 10:39
All agressive ignorants in history accused people, who trained and used their intuition, of being magicians. But in the broadest sense, all acts of individual will, unless dictated by God, - were magic, actually. Consequently; religious rituals, if not coming from a God-inspired founder of a religion, - could have been also treated as magic.
In ancient Egypt, magic (hheka) was the original tool of gods, used for transformation of the material and/or spiritual worlds. Then, in the Egyptian satiric literature comes to life a well-known personage of a magician looking for the Seventh Book of Thoth containing the strongest creation and annihilation formulas. Most of the Christian prejudices against magic come from the last centuries of ìndependent Egypt`s existence, when a real fight on magical formulas was being held among commoners.
It has nothing to do with dowsing, which is neither about creation nor annihilation. It`s only a method of detecting subtle energies in the environment, without any attempts to change them, I suppose. Finding "things" by dowsing is based on trained intuition of a dowser rather than something else.
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2013-05-19 14:15 ]
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ledgehammer
Joined:
29-06-2011
Messages: 722
from Surrey
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-19 09:37
So much information has been offered here around dowsing, some of which are personal observations / experiences, The definition of magic:
Quote:
| Magic is the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation, ceremony, ritual, the casting of spells or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature |
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Note "desired effect", this could be showing the location of something via using the forces of nature, technically George is right.
The piece he quoted maybe a representation of the duality around skeptisim and dowsing, except in this time there was a religious element associated with this perception.
He never tried dowsing by his own admission so I don't feel he's qualified to offer anything to this debate, the mythology doesn't have a bearing on work probing into the phenomena.
stating that dowsing is a divinatory art would be dismissed by most modern religions as non so, all we are dealing with here is the way dowsing has been viewed, in superstitious terms due to the perceptions at that time.
Have you got data to back up that dowsing doesn't work, that subtle energies do not exist, and are undetectable if they may do. Simply palming off on this superstitious account of things doesn't have any bearing what so ever.
Best
Tom
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tiompan
Joined:
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-18 11:22
The “ I can dowse everything” rings hollow if you are unwilling to actually do anything to prove it .
"a detectable series of signals that correspond to where megalithic constructions are to be found "
Cart before the horse there .
Dowsing unrecordable energies at megalithic sites is hardly in the same league , anyone can make that claim particularly if you have a bunch of megaliths on which to base it .
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tiompan
Joined:
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Messages: 2638
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-18 11:14
If you don't believe that dowsing is rooted in magic and the belief in it's efficacy in magical thinking then maybe it's time you read Keith Thomas .
It is divinatory i.e. a magical practice , see Agricola for the use of incantations etc ,from John Dee to contemporary dowsers the magical law of sympathy is used as an explanation for the movement of the rods .
One of the most obvious signifiers used by stage magicians is the “wand “ where do think that came from if not rhabdomancy ?
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