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Pictures from the Past: Art and Symbols of the Neolithic and Bronze Age |
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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
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|  New Message Posted!2013-05-23 08:49
Ric you are the one who chose to dip into , maybe even buy , a book titled “Stations of the Sun “ then later complained about the phrase being misleading and ambiguous ,what attracted you to it ? The ambiguity ?
Your initial post here about the book was not concerned with ambiguity but the argument i.e. the content , which you found “troubling “ .There is no doubt that what mattered to you was the rejection of the idea of solar alignments everywhere and not one reference to the ambiguity .
This continued for some time until it became apparent that Hutton was correct only then did you change tack to argue that the language was misleading despite it being explained that is was sufficiently straightforward and , however it was read it was still correct .This continued until Orbpit went to the trouble of asking the author and the explanation was as had been expected .
What took up the time and space was not the ambiguity of the language ( it can be easily checked )but your failure to accept what was explained to you in the first reply to the original response .
George
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megalith6
Joined:
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-23 03:05
George posted 22-05-2013 at 15:42 Ric , "the vast majority of prehistoric monuments in these islands do not relate to ... the cardinal points of the sun" was clear enough to most who read it and was clarified by the author i.e. “the vast majority of prehistoric monuments in the British Isles are not accurately aligned on sunsets or sunrises at the solstices and equinoxes.” .However the initial comment was read it was true , as was the confirmation .
You may not like the the use of language but I think it was the content that was really the sore point .
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I am afraid that is incorrect George,
The sore point is Ronald Hutton's use of language here, I just wish he could express himself in more straightforward terms, it would have saved a great deal of time and space I feel.
Secondly, we must tread carefully when considering what prehistoric people may or may not have intended by erecting their monuments - what unites us with them is our shared humanity - and look at the tremendous range of views expressed within this thread: it is highly likely therefore that similar divergences of opinion, belief and philosophy existed in prehistory - region to region - and we need I think to be sensitive to that.
Ric
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tiompan
Joined:
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-23 00:27
There are criteria for judging whether a putative alignment has any meaning in relation to a particular astronomical event e.g. it is accepted the the passage and roof box at Newgrange is aligned on the rising winter solstice sun because the sunlight enters the passage , on days either side of the of the solstice . You may argue that it is fortuitous or that the alignment is actually upon some other astronomical event .
We don't know what was in the minds of the builders but other major monuments are also aligned on solstices and it does appear intentional . You would have difficulty convincing anyone that the monument was aligned upon a lunar event or another solar event like an equinox simply because the alignment would be too inaccurate . If you argue that a level of accuracy should not be a considered in the criteria then you would have to dismiss the Newgrange alignment on the solstice and others that display what appears to be deliberate orientations on certain astro events because , if accuracy is not to be seen as important then possibly sites like Newgrange were aligned on something else or not at all . Most archaeoastronomers would dismiss that view .
Burl made this point “”The longer face of single standing stone ,the orientation of an isolated stone row that happens to be in line with a solar or lunar event cannot be taken as proof that the alignment was intended “
There has to be some form of clear indication concerning an alignment the passage of a passage grave is one , an avenue another . If we want to be sure of intention then simply lining up a couple of stones within a stone circle is not good enough or one stone to a hill top .Burl made this point “”The longer face of single standing stone ,the orientation of an isolated stone row that happens to be in line with a solar or lunar event cannot be taken as proof that the alignment was intended “ . If we accepted whatever people chose to believe as being alignments because it suited their agenda or because they felt it “looked right “ or “felt right “ we would be swamped with meaningless data and would have to include all the other similar circumstances that they ignored or didn't feel was right which would negate their initial findings.
George
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cerrig
Joined:
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Messages: 909
from Brecon Beacons
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-22 22:52
True according to who, George, and what are the criteria for the definition of " relating to the cardinal points of the sun" or "an alignment" ?
cerrig
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tiompan
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-22 18:33
I don't see any general inference in the Hutton comments about megalithic monuments “ not intended to have any relationship with the heavens “ . He said "the vast majority of prehistoric monuments in these islands do not relate to ... the cardinal points of the sun" and “the vast majority of prehistoric monuments in the British Isles are not accurately aligned on sunsets or sunrises at the solstices and equinoxes.” And both are true .
George
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cropredy
Joined:
01-01-2006
Messages: 5547
from Oxon
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-22 18:28
This is a link about the alignments of the round towers of Ireland.
I do like how the moth reacts to the radiation of a light bulb in spiral fashion, they do have very advanced senses , nes pas?
http://www.whale.to/b/callahan.html
cropredy
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jonm
Joined:
12-07-2011
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from UK
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-22 18:17
Quote:
| Once again we are back to the sticking point as to what is meant by an " alignment", as the inference in Mr Huttons statement is that , generally, megalithic monuments were not intended to have any relationship with the heavens ( for want of a better expression ) |
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Interesting one this. Perhaps it's correct in that the monuments are not generally aligned on things that modern astro-archaeologists would realise were relevant to them? We define an "alignment" by how important it is relative to our own world-view.
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cerrig
Joined:
25-09-2009
Messages: 909
from Brecon Beacons
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-22 17:12
Once again we are back to the sticking point as to what is meant by an " alignment", as the inference in Mr Huttons statement is that , generally, megalithic monuments were not intended to have any relationship with the heavens ( for want of a better expression )
I think he's wrong, and every time I visit an ancient site I think he's wronger.
cerrig
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tiompan
Joined:
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-22 15:42
Ric , "the vast majority of prehistoric monuments in these islands do not relate to ... the cardinal points of the sun" was clear enough to most who read it and was clarified by the author i.e. “the vast majority of prehistoric monuments in the British Isles are not accurately aligned on sunsets or sunrises at the solstices and equinoxes.” .However the initial comment was read it was true , as was the confirmation .
You may not like the the use of language but I think it was the content that was really the sore point .
George
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megalith6
Joined:
28-10-2001
Messages: 130
from London UK
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| New Message Posted!2013-05-22 15:04
George Posted [edit] 10-05-2013 at 10:02
Ric, Hutton didn't mention alignments in his correct comment
"the vast majority of prehistoric monuments in these islands do not relate to ... the cardinal points of the sun"
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Ric replied: If by this somewhat oblique above statement Hutton means that not all megalithic monuments reference solstices and / or equinoxes then that is a simple fact, and to state it as some form of scholastic revelation seems rather absurd to me. Why not use direct speech to convey prosaic facts, but instead employ potentially ambiguous if not misleading terms like ‘cardinal points of the sun’ and especially ‘stations of the sun’, whatever these are?
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Orpbit had earlier posted 05-12-2012 at 23:29
“...As far as I'm concerned in archaeoastronomy there are only four important (Cardinal) positions of the Sun. These are the Summer and Winter solstices and the Spring and Autumn Equinoxes...the most important festival (ritual) days were Quarter days in England”
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