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Feanor
Joined:
11-05-2011
Messages: 316
from Cape Cod Massachusetts, US
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|  New Message Posted!2012-07-06 20:36
Ivar,
Fill a round basin with water.
Pull a small plug out of the small hole in the bottom.
Watch the water 'Swirl' around the basin as it drains.
Allow this process to take 10 billion years.
Funny ... it looks just like a Spiral Galaxy.
I have looked at your intriguing website and (among other things) the references to "No Proof of Black Holes"
Guess what I think?
____________________________
I will access your e-mail and send you some Stonehenge material.
Best,
Neil
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SpaceTravellor
Joined:
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Messages: 20
from Denmark
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| New Message Posted!2012-07-06 19:57
Neil,
Yes we agree on some things and not on other things which is OK and interesting.
Regarding the question of "black holes" this really refutes itself when closely examined:
If there was a black gravity hole in the middle of our galaxy, everything would be dragged into the swirling centre, orbiting faster and faster closer to the hole.
This doesn´t happen. All objects in the galaxy orbit the galactic centre with the same relative speed around the centre. The objects in our galaxy doesn´t obey “the laws of objects moving around a gravity centre” – (the galactic rotation anomaly) and that’s why cosmologists were forced to ad a hypothetic epicycle of “dark matter” instead of thinking different about the contradicted law and hypothesis.
This contradiction cannot be found in the mythological telling of our Milky Way. Here it is told that “everything was created in the middle of the Garden of Eden and later on expelled from this centre”. That is, cosmological interpreted: Everything was/is created in the centre of our galaxy and mowed out in the galactic surroundings.
When everything (stars and planets) is mowing out from a swirling centre, all objects have the same orbit velocity – as in our galaxy. That is really: We are looking at an actual movement in our galaxy where the movement goes quite opposite of the consensus ideas.
This is one of the most important examples of how mythology, cosmologically interpreted, are more superior than modern cosmology.
Neil, you are welcome to use my personal MP-mail address if you wish to send me some material about Stonehenge.
[ This message was edited by: SpaceTravellor on 2012-07-06 20:01 ]
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Feanor
Joined:
11-05-2011
Messages: 316
from Cape Cod Massachusetts, US
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| New Message Posted!2012-07-06 17:55
Ivar,
We are, sir, not so far apart in our thinking, perhaps.
Certainly the World Tree Yggdrasil is allegorical, but I feel that expanding it to define the entire Galaxy is a stretch.
I don't have a website concerning Stonehenge, but do have a great many illustrations and lots of cross-referenced written material.
(Prepping for a new book)
I have never seen, nor heard of anyone seeing the presumed location of the Milky Way Center. This is said meaning 'with the naked eye'.
I cannot speak with certainty regarding Shamanistic Journeys. I neither endorse nor deny its validity.
The Black Hole 'theory' is an almost universally accepted concept that has yet to be refuted. There's an overwhelming body of direct and indirect observable evidence, not the least of which is why 'we' swirl counter-clockwise. Gravity lensing, mass-coefficient diffusion, spectral-shift imaging and apparent motion are just a few.
(There's some fractal math in there someplace too if memory serves, but that stuff is well beyond me in any case.)
Though obviously we cannot 'see' a specific event-horizon, the physics allude to a certain location within the Central Cluster.
In addition, we see all this in hundreds of other spiral galaxies and the processes are virtually identical.
Black Holes are a fundamental component in our understanding the nature of the Universe. They elegantly incorporate all that's known about light, gravity, matter and its conversion into the various wave-lengths of energy. These processes define a major foundation in the creation of Stars.
For example: Through this process we now know that the carbon and hydrogen atoms that we're all made of way out here in the back-road hinterland are in their second incarnation through recycled Star-Building.
No - the Higgs Boson plays no role in these late stages.
Yes, these processes are cyclical and not necessarily linear. Warped space-time is not yet fully understood, but getting from one place to another by the shortest route may not be a straight line. Einstein considered the continuum to be saddle-shaped.
(Off-the-chart weird!)
I agree that interpretation of the Mythology is key. A comprehensive understanding of it is what creates this key. We all get to say what's on our mind's without someone jumping up and down. But we do get to cordially disagree.
I'm that guy ...
You can find my correct e-mail addy on my MP homepage. I would be happy to share my thoughts and illustrations on Great Henge.
Best wishes,
Neil
_____________________________
[Edit: PS - Yes, I am very familiar with Mr Campbell's work. Sort of why I referenced him in my parting quip! ]
[ This message was edited by: Feanor on 2012-07-06 18:25 ]
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SpaceTravellor
Joined:
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Messages: 20
from Denmark
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| New Message Posted!2012-07-06 15:59
Hello Neil,
Thanks for your interesting replies and your feedback.
Your idea of Stonehenge being a building that mirrors the cosmos and our cosmic position in it is not alien to me and I can follow your overall ideas. (Do you have any reference and describing articles on this matter or perhaps a website?)
You wrote:
3. Norse Mythology has 3 worlds. Under, Mid & OverWorlds.
None of these had to do with: A) The Hemispheres of Earth as you describe, or B) Proof that the Milky Way was at the root of their Mythology.
AD: In fact, the Norse Mythology has 3 worlds all divided in 3 sub worlds and all these worlds are included in the area of the World Tree, Yggdrasil.
So, it all depends of how one read and interprets this telling. Do you include just the Earth and imagine that the world tree represent the Earth axis only and nothing else? In my opinion the World Tree can be an allegorical galactic tree standing in the middle of the galaxy, from where everything is created; including our Solar System itself hence this is an integrated orbiting part of the Milky Way formation and rotation.
If you accept this, the Norse Worlds describes the daily sky above you; it describes the middle sky where the sun and some star sets and rise and it describes the sky world beneath the horizon, the Underworld.
When accepting and connecting this explanation to the mythology of the Milky Way and its contours that can be observed all around the Earth, these contours all belong to the “Giants” in mythology (because these contours are the largest/gigantic objects observable in the night sky) and Giants on the other hand all appears in connection with the stories of creation.
You wrote:
4. Again, the Milky Way center cannot be seen, nor is there a 'Bright Area' where it can be surmised by eye-observation. It is a central cluster of a million+ stars, and the central core has been established to be a Black Hole - which ultimately causes a Spiral Galaxy to be Spiral.
AD: I think you must admit that the Milky Way has a brighter area where its center is located - Milky Way Luminous Centre – observable either physically from the southern hemisphere or spiritually via a shamanistic journey.
- Besides this, I don’t accept a “consensus black hole” to be located in the MW centre, or elsewhere for that matter. If holding strict on to the mythical telling, the MW centre represents “The Cosmic Womb” of the Great Mother Goddess residing on the Underworld i.e. under the northern horizon and up in the sky, and the so called “black hole” is then just the swirling “birth channel or funnel” of the galactic mother i.e. in the galactic luminous centre. It is from here mythologically everything in our galaxy are formatted and born. - Milky Way Mother Goddess
You wrote:
The arcana of deep-past Mythology is at best very difficult to interpret when all we have for reference are vestiges of the last thing they wrote or built.
AD: I´ll say this: If connecting the right mythological telling to the right celestial objects or right elementary forces, it is not that difficult to interpret the creation myths and its cosmogonic meanings. And if one does this very carefully, the mythical knowledge surpasses the knowledge of the modern cosmology by many lengths, showing that everything in the Universe is cyclical and not linear as in the Big Bang.
You wrote:
In short, (believe it or not!) you can sell me on the Milky Way being a vital component of a particular, or even a pantheon Mythos'. But even today we all still worship the Sun. (Even though we generally like to call it something else.)
AD: I of course also am sold to the knowledge of and worshipping of the Sun, I just focus mostly on the somewhat forgotten Milky Way Mythology and the cosmological meanings of the Stories of Creation.
NB. Regarding your “lengthy studies” description of how you see and interpret the specific structure of Stonehenge, do you have any illustrations on hand?
NNB: Apropos: Do you know something of the Joseph Campbell works?
Best wishes
Ivar
[ This message was edited by: SpaceTravellor on 2012-07-06 16:13 ]
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Feanor
Joined:
11-05-2011
Messages: 316
from Cape Cod Massachusetts, US
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2012-07-05 23:25
1. I'm not denying the significance the Milky Way as it might have been perceived.
2. The 'Midgaard Serpent' may well have been a representation or spiritual incarnation of the Milky Way.
3. Norse Mythology has 3 worlds. Under, Mid & OverWorlds.
None of these had to do with: A) The Hemispheres of Earth as you describe, or B) Proof that the Milky Way was at the root of their Mythology.
4. Again, the Milky Way center cannot be seen, nor is there a 'Bright Area' where it can be surmised by eye-observation. It is a central cluster of a million+ stars, and the central core has been established to be a Black Hole - which ultimately causes a Spiral Galaxy to be Spiral.
(We're all Doomed! lol)
This said, you couldn't see a particular center-star even if the outer cluster were visible.
6. I suspect that the Greater & Lesser Megellanic Clouds may have played a role in various Mythologies, but they're also in the South, unseen way up here - that is, above 30 degrees.
My lengthy studies are, in scope, primarily related to the Culture surrounding Stonehenge. Unique to other henges, this one has its Dike inside the Ditch. After much thought and contemplation it occurs to me that the Monument is a representation of the Cosmos and 'our' place within it.
Incorporated into, and indistinguishable from the physical is the metaphysical, and this is demonstrated (in my present interpretation) to mean that the Ditch is their UnderWorld - the Realm of Black beyond the Stars were the evil, unclean dead reside. Tools have been left there by kind Humans so these wretched creatures might dig their own graves.
The area between the Dike and the Circle is the Overworld, a place where the Stars, Moon & Planets reside. The Aubrey Holes are the 56 Brightest Stars in all of Sky. They are also reliquaries where Honored Sages are laid to rest 'Among The Stars' - ever watchful, somewhat aloof, yet rife with Dream Guidance to the Worthy.
The Dike represents an essential Barrier between the Dark & Light. Notice that the Avenue, or Ceremonial Approach, also contains this important feature. (Can't be letting those Bad Guys in!)
The Station Stones originally marked the Tropics of Cancer & Capricorn, back when the entire Henge was considered to be a spherical Earth. This effort was later incorporated into defining the dimensions of the Stone Circle. They also mark various Noons, Sunsets, Midnights in addition to the Lunar High & Low Standstills. (See? I even throw the Moon in there!)
The Stone Circle is Earth, with each of the individual Stones representing an omnibus of Ancestors. The outer Bluestones are the Humans of Earth, while the taller, more elegant inner set are the stylized Offspring of Mother, the Rightwise-born, corporeal Masters.
The Trilithons themselves are the Womb of Mother Earth.
The Sun is King of the Universe, and as Master over this vast Dominion, he lives apart from All and makes visit upon his beautiful Earth-Wife only at a precisely prescribed time in June, then leaves her love-embrace 6 months later, when the fire of their passion has begun to cool.
She, as represented by Stone 16, stands proudly displaying the bounty he has left within her - his last sight before descending into the uttermost depths of Winter.
Take note that I do not consider myself in any way to be the Final Arbiter in my Stonehenge ideas. There's a few others out there with a wealth of credibility.
This concept is peppered with duplication (in a million incarnations) the world over, without regard to what degree of sophistication the Culture may have progressed. The Stars, Planets, Moon and yes - the Milky Way - all certainly play roles.
But it is Always the Sun as the central theme.
The arcana of deep-past Mythology is at best very difficult to interpret when all we have for reference are vestiges of the last thing they wrote or built.
In short, (believe it or not!) you can sell me on the Milky Way being a vital component of a particular, or even a pantheon Mythos'. But even today we all still worship the Sun. (Even though we generally like to call it something else.)
Best wishes,
Neil
(hmm ... "A Pantheon of Mythos" Good name for a book. Joseph Campbell - take a seat in the back!)
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SpaceTravellor
Joined:
10-11-2008
Messages: 20
from Denmark
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| New Message Posted!2012-07-05 21:01
Hello Feanor,
First: When referring to Ra and the "first fiery light" in the galactic centre, our ancestors pictured the most glowing area of the Milky Way and not specifically the center star in the Milky Way.
Secondly: Myths from all over the world are dealing with the whole galactic structure as seen from the Earth. For instants, in Norse Mythology this structure is called "The Midgaard Serpent". Similar mythical descriptions of Dragons and Winged Serpents can be found from all over the world.
The mythical world picture is divided into 2 halves, namely the "Underworld and the "Upperworld", referring to the southern and northern hemisphere.
The mythological term of the "Underworld" describes not a place somewhere inside the Earth" or under the ground, but a place "under the horizon of the northern hemisphere" which is connected to "the great Milky Way Underworld Goddess up on the southern night sky", namely the Milky Way Goddess, so our ancestors did know of this. (Of course, this luminous and fiery place is not called "the Underworld" when observed from the southern hemisphere). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underworld and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Underworld_goddesses
Again, it is very difficult to understand how our ancestors gained the cosmological knowledge of things that cannot be observed by physical skills - and this cannot be understood unless one accept the term of Shamanistic out-of-body-travelling.
Many global myths also describe a deity or a hero "going into the underworld" and in this journey they get the knowledge of life and death and how everything is created in the Milky Way. This journey is not a literary journey taking place on the Earth but a spiritual journey up in the sky on the southern hemisphere. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_to_the_underworld
- Read the additional explanations from the links and see if you can catch the basically ancient world picture.
Quote:
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On 2012-07-05 18:00, Feanor wrote:
Fair enough ...
I will concede that the Milky Way may have provided and endless base for any number of religious concepts, though not the central theme.
The issue I have is basically: you cannot see the Galactic Center from way out here in the Sagittarian Arm - it's shrouded from view by hydrogen clouds. This renders any Creationist theory with it as the central theme moot.
Without a Spectrometer, it would be difficult to even know where to look for it.
Additionally, if you Could see it, it would only be visible in the Southern Hemisphere, rendering many Northern Cultures ignorant of these ideas.
You cannot view the whole thing unless you live at the Equator in the spring and fall. |
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Feanor
Joined:
11-05-2011
Messages: 316
from Cape Cod Massachusetts, US
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2012-07-05 18:00
Fair enough ...
I will concede that the Milky Way may have provided and endless base for any number of religious concepts, though not the central theme.
The issue I have is basically: you cannot see the Galactic Center from way out here in the Sagittarian Arm - it's shrouded from view by hydrogen clouds. This renders any Creationist theory with it as the central theme moot.
Without a Spectrometer, it would be difficult to even know where to look for it.
Additionally, if you Could see it, it would only be visible in the Southern Hemisphere, rendering many Northern Cultures ignorant of these ideas.
You cannot view the whole thing unless you live at the Equator in the spring and fall.
[ This message was edited by: Feanor on 2012-07-05 18:04 ]
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SpaceTravellor
Joined:
10-11-2008
Messages: 20
from Denmark
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| New Message Posted!2012-07-05 12:06
Hello Feanor - and thanks for your reply.
I know it is somewhat difficult for modern humans to include an ancestral knowledge of the Milky Way, but when reading of comparative mythology, especially the stories of creation, this is really confirmed all over the place.
For instants:
On - Hathor - it is said that: "Hathor, along with the goddess Nut, was associated with the Milky Way during the third millennium B.C. when, during the fall and spring equinoxes, it aligned over and touched the earth where the sun rose and fell. The four legs of the celestial cow represented Nut or Hathor could, in one account, be seen as the pillars on which the sky was supported with the stars on their bellies constituting the Milky Way on which the solar barque of Ra, representing the sun, sailed”.
AD: Many global stories of creation take off in a stage where “nothing is created”, not even our solar system, and where the basic primeval elements are at rest. Another example from Egypt is telling of these primeval elements and of the first physical creation connected to the creation of the Milky Way:
Ogdoad
“The eight (primeval) deities were arranged in four female-male pairs: Naunet and Nu, Amaunet and Amun, Kauket and Kuk, Hauhet and Huh. The females were associated with snakes and the males were associated with frogs. Apart from their gender, there was little to distinguish the female goddess from the male god in a pair; indeed, the names of the females are merely the female forms of the male name and vice versa. Essentially, each pair represents the female and male aspect of one of four concepts, namely the primordial waters (Naunet and Nu), air or invisibility (Amunet and Amun), darkness (Kauket and Kuk), and eternity or infinite space (Hauhet and Huh).
Together the four concepts represent the primal, fundamental state of the beginning, they are what always was. In the myth, however, their interaction ultimately proved to be unbalanced resulting in the arising of a new entity. When the entity opened, it revealed Ra, the fiery sun, inside. After a long interval of rest, Ra, together with the other deities, created all other things”.
AD: Here “Ra” is the first entity that is created by the 4 (8) elements. Ra is usually interpreted as the Sun, but Ra can logically not be connected to the Sun since the Solar System is not the first to be created in the Milky Way. Ra represents therefore “the fiery light” of the Milky Way centre from where everything is created in the Milky Way as stated above with “. . . Ra, together with the other deities, created all other things”, which of course not can be said about the Sun.
- When it is said in the Hathor quote above, that “constituting the Milky Way on which the solar barque of Ra, representing the sun, sailed”, this also talks for Ra being an object that only can be observed in the night together with the Milky Way and again therefore Ra cannot be interpreted as the Sun. This is a very common mistake which is repeated all over by scholars and others of mythological interests.
- If looking at a star map with the Milky Way contours on both Earth hemispheres, one can easily imagine and depict both animal-shaped and/or human-shaped figures which have given origin to the telling of the first and largest deities in the mythological telling from all over the world. On a favorable night and season one can observe these crescent contours revolving around the celestial poles and compare the figures to many cultural stories and symbols – for instants also on the global rock carvings.
See http://www.native-science.net/Antropomorph.God.Man.Animal.htm and http://www.native-science.net/Forefather.Worship.htm
Besides this interpretation and explanation of the Milky Way Mythology, of course the Sun; the Moon and some few planets also have been worshipped by many cultures all over the world.
Quote:
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On 2012-07-05 05:25, Feanor wrote:
Welcome Space Travellor!
I followed along pretty carefully with this interminable post, nodding my head in agreement with some of it. The references to, and interpretations of, the Moon & Planets particularly.
You sort of lost me a bit though when you begin to infer that The Ancients could have comprehended the nature of a Galaxy.
This, in my view, is not possible.
They looked up, beheld the sky, saw the fine, cloudy ribbon of the Milky way, but they also witnessed that the 5 "Wanderers" or Planets - along with the Sun - move in a tight band of Sky we call the Ecliptic. Also that they move through the 12 Constellations that have, since people looked up, been associated with a Zodiac of some sort, depending upon the Culture under discussion.
(The Moon, as I have mentioned in past posts, is rarely included, as it moves all over the place! It has a nomenclature almost to itself, in most instances, though is often delivered as being some relative of the Sun, as they are the identical apparent size.)
As beautiful and mysterious as the Milky Way must have been to them, it most likely was not associated with their Major Deities.
Their astronomy was almost exclusively Earth-Centric, with everything else in orbit around 'us'. This, I take pains to mention, was the world-view until barely 400 years ago.
The Sun in all its many incarnations is virtually universal as the Panacea God or Deity, and its motion in the sky throughout the year is very carefully and precisely documented by all substantial cultures from time immemorial.
Cultural sophistication did, over many years of ideological evolution, assigned any manner of motivation and even identity to their Sun-God, but it remained the center of the Belief-System in terms of its association with Earth.
Best wishes,
Neil
______________________
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[ This message was edited by: SpaceTravellor on 2012-07-05 20:07 ]
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Feanor
Joined:
11-05-2011
Messages: 316
from Cape Cod Massachusetts, US
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2012-07-05 05:25
Welcome Space Travellor!
I followed along pretty carefully with this interminable post, nodding my head in agreement with some of it. The references to, and interpretations of, the Moon & Planets particularly.
You sort of lost me a bit though when you begin to infer that The Ancients could have comprehended the nature of a Galaxy.
This, in my view, is not possible.
They looked up, beheld the sky, saw the fine, cloudy ribbon of the Milky way, but they also witnessed that the 5 "Wanderers" or Planets - along with the Sun - move in a tight band of Sky we call the Ecliptic. Also that they move through the 12 Constellations that have, since people looked up, been associated with a Zodiac of some sort, depending upon the Culture under discussion.
(The Moon, as I have mentioned in past posts, is rarely included, as it moves all over the place! It has a nomenclature almost to itself, in most instances, though is often delivered as being some relative of the Sun, as they are the identical apparent size.)
As beautiful and mysterious as the Milky Way must have been to them, it most likely was not associated with their Major Deities.
Their astronomy was almost exclusively Earth-Centric, with everything else in orbit around 'us'. This, I take pains to mention, was the world-view until barely 400 years ago.
The Sun in all its many incarnations is virtually universal as the Panacea God or Deity, and its motion in the sky throughout the year is very carefully and precisely documented by all substantial cultures from time immemorial.
Cultural sophistication did, over many years of ideological evolution, assigned any manner of motivation and even identity to their Sun-God, but it remained the center of the Belief-System in terms of its association with Earth.
Best wishes,
Neil
__________________________
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SpaceTravellor
Joined:
10-11-2008
Messages: 20
from Denmark
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2012-07-04 08:13
Hello Sem,
Thanks for your reply.
You wrote:
Quote:
| Hi Space Travellor and Welcome.
You appear to have missed a few important details.
Best wishes
Sem |
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Please elaborate a little on "the few important details".
[ This message was edited by: SpaceTravellor on 2012-07-04 08:13 ]
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