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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
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|  New Message Posted!2012-05-23 15:47
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On 2012-05-22 16:06, vlad wrote:
I wonder what kind of mythical personages could have been once put into action at the bullaun stones of Ireland and Scotland. - There are some guesses on the net pointing to the three forms of Celtic war goddess, acting as the Fates. I don`t feel it`s right. Forces behind the Celtic "mills of fate" could have been conceived as more local, i.e. closer to the real situation. What do you think?
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2012-05-22 16:42 ]
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In the absence of record even from the same period when the Celtic war goddesses were noted , any mythic association must be speculation . Alternatively ,we do have a perfectly reasonable non christian explanation , cursing , or the christian praying stone explanation for the same , a practice supported by the evidence from the later period . To extend the mythic association to the prehistoric , a period which must have been the source of some of the Bullauns , would only compound the problem . The creation of the proto bulluan is unlikely to have had any rotating association with myth , if such existed , as they would ahve ben more than likely created by percussion .
George
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vlad
Joined:
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from Stockholm
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| New Message Posted!2012-05-22 16:06
It`s not mysterious; it`s all clear. Those explanations use to be welcomed, which push the Sacredness of the World far far away to its outskirts. And it`s not a specialty of post-Protestant lands. It began already in antiquity.
Take for instance such concept as the exemplary Isles of the Blessed. - The souls of fallen heroes are not allowed to stay at their tumuli graves, wherefrom they could help their descendants. Instead, they are transported away to some far-off islands, where they cannot be contacted by any commoners. There should be no alternative to new lords ruling the latter.
The myth of the Fenya and Menyas Mill - when taken back to the level of the original "folk-tales" (acc.to V.Propp), would perhaps reveal a conviction that those were the giantesses, which moved the "wishing-mill" with the use of your hands? This is their will, which should be done. Yes; this is the specialty of Nordic spirituality that even gods (Frodi) has no power over their own destiny, represented by such entieties as the Norns - the Scandinavian Fates or their variety in the form of Fenya and Menya.
I wonder what kind of mythical personages could have been once put into action at the bullaun stones of Ireland and Scotland. - There are some guesses on the net pointing to the three forms of Celtic war goddess, acting as the Fates. I don`t feel it`s right. Forces behind the Celtic "mills of fate" could have been conceived as more local, i.e. closer to the real situation. What do you think?
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2012-05-22 16:42 ]
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tiompan
Joined:
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| New Message Posted!2012-05-21 19:19
There was no suggestion that the Hamlet's Mill interpretation should not be rejected , it is welcomed . Similarly Levi -Strauss and many other researchers rejected Propp .
In this particular case there is nothing to suggest that the stone is not christian whereas many other Bullauns are probably much earlier , possibly based on previously cup marked rocks . Many cup marks can be shown to have been created by pecking ,the peck marks are still evident , we can't ever be sure that Bullauns were not also pecked and smoothed later , they are mysterious .
George
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vlad
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from Stockholm
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| New Message Posted!2012-05-21 18:06
Hamlet`s Mill interpretation has been rejected by many researchers under past years. My version is based on Vladimir Propp`s ideas regarding "myths" as products of unification of a group of related folk-tales. Now; such a mill as described in the Song of Grotte should be treated as a kind of a specific sanctuary, right?
How to position it with respect to the "parallel world" should be of utmost importance for an initiated audience. The possibility I postulate is that in the Song of Grotte the sacred quern-mill is placed with respect to the life-energy net by using those personages - a Danish king Frodi (a god Frey incarnate?) and two giantesses Fenya and Menya, who came from afar. When looking for possible equivalent of the Chinese yin-yang concept, we find in Europe mostly such mythical personal interactions, instead.
The crucial point, when comparing the bullaun found on Isle of Canna with the Danish mythical mill, imo is the warning against abusing the female forces, which are acting at the latter. It results in a curse on their side. So when there`s the name "cursing stone" used on that bullaun, it perhaps has relation to the group of folk-tales, from which the Song-of-Grotte myth was once synthesized? (c.f. V. Propp,above) Maybe from the latter we can draw some details and/or reasons-why regarding that cursing name?
At the end, tiompan; it`s a mystery for me what that bullaun of the Isle of Canna could have to do with the phenomenon of precession? - Long live the mystery section!!
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2012-05-21 19:25 ]
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tiompan
Joined:
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| New Message Posted!2012-05-21 09:24
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On 2012-05-21 07:17, vlad wrote:
Now; when using such story like that of Fenya and Menya and their quern-mill as a pattern, you should first reject alien motives, which have coalesced around under centuries. And here it`s this milling of salt to keep the sea salty. Then you look for a basic space structure at the core of a story.
Here it is the king Frodi, which is the "owner" of two gigantesses. If we "translate" it into the mythical space categories, it means that the story is about a megalithic construction positioned within two yin-paths crossing, which is placed at a yang-core of a major leyline. What shall we do with such an insight? Well; it depends on the local situation and your personal capabilities.
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2012-05-21 07:29 ]
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Or we could reject that alien motive and come up with yet other countless possibilities . Santilla and Deychend based Hamlet's Mill on that , and similar myths as a basis for demonstaring they were a means of transmitting an understanding of precession . When it comes to interpretation we often learn more about the intrepreter than the myth .
George
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2012-05-21 09:32 ]
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vlad
Joined:
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from Stockholm
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| New Message Posted!2012-05-21 07:17
Older than Fenya-and-Menya quern-mill story, there`s the tradition of rotating boulders in Scandinavia, which are supposed to have been used as offer devices.
You just place a chicken or a fish underneath and take out the smaller stone, which immobilizes the boulder. Then you crush and grind the offer rotating the boulder. So simple as that. Each place has its "rå" - a ruling entiety, which demands a part of a place`s produce as an offer. There are local forest-rulers ("skogsrå"), lake or local seashore-rulers ("sjörå"), etc. I suppose they are waiting for attention in vain since before WWII.
Now; when using such story like that of Fenya and Menya and their quern-mill as a pattern, you should first reject alien motives, which have coalesced around under centuries. And here it`s this milling of salt to keep the sea salty. Then you look for a basic space structure at the core of a story.
Here it is the king Frodi, which is the "owner" of two gigantesses. If we "translate" it into the mythical space categories, it means that the story is about a megalithic construction positioned within two yin-paths crossing, which is placed at a yang-core of a major leyline. What shall we do with such an insight? Well; it depends on the local situation and your personal capabilities.
At last, the warning against misuse of the wishing quern-mill structure, coming out of the Fenya and Menya story, is maybe
still binding.
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2012-05-21 07:29 ]
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frogcottage42
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14-02-2010
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from tuosist
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| New Message Posted!2012-05-20 22:33
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On 2012-05-20 19:37, Sunny100 wrote:
I believe that milk was poured into the circular depressions in ballaun stones in Ireland. A connection with fertility, I suspect.
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I am not sure of that but there is certainly a tradition of placing smaller stones in the holes and turning them. It is even more curious that something which seems so pagan should only ever be found at Christian sites, they are always found near churches here and I suspect that there must be a nod to an earlier tradition that the Church needed to either tolerate or continue to keep local customs in their sight.
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vlad
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from Stockholm
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| New Message Posted!2012-05-20 19:47
Here`s one Scandinavian tradition :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grottas%C3%B6ngr
which might throw some light upon practices involving bullaun stones. As you can see, the giantesses Fenya and Menya began with milling prosperity for king Frodi. First when gratitude was lacking, they began their cursing mill.
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2012-05-21 06:48 ]
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Sunny100
Joined:
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Messages: 216
from Near Nelson, Lancashire
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| New Message Posted!2012-05-20 19:37
I believe that milk was poured into the circular depressions in ballaun stones in Ireland. A connection with fertility, I suspect.
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Runemage
Joined:
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from UK
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| New Message Posted!2012-05-20 13:41
'Cursing stone' found on Isle of Canna
A stone discovered by chance on the Isle of Canna is Scotland's first known example of a bullaun "cursing stone", experts have revealed. Dating from about 800 AD, the stones are associated with early Christian crosses - of which there is one on the isle.It was found in an old graveyard by a National Trust for Scotland (NTS) farm manager.
The stone is about 25cm in diameter and engraved with an early Christian cross. It was later found to fit exactly into a large rectangular stone with a worn hole which was located at the base of the Canna cross. NTS manager of Canna, Stewart Connor, said the importance of the stone became clear after he was notified of the discovery.
He said: "We knew of the importance of bullaun stones and that it could be a really significant find.
"Our head of archaeology confirmed a possible link to the stone at the cross and I was so excited that I went back out at 9pm that night to check whether it fitted the stone with the hole and it did."
Katherine Forsyth, an expert in the history and culture of early Celtic-speaking peoples, based at the University of Glasgow, described it as an "amazing find". "Stones like this are found in Ireland, where they are known as 'cursing stones', but this is the first to be discovered in Scotland," she said.
This is the first time a top stone has been discovered
"They date from the early Christian period but have continued to be used by pilgrims up to modern times. Traditionally, the pilgrim would recite a prayer while turning the stone clockwise, wearing a depression or hole in the stone underneath."
Dr Forsyth said bowl-shaped lower stones had been found elsewhere in Scotland, including on Canna, but this was the first discovery of a top stone.
She added: "This exciting find provides important new insight into religious art and practice in early Scotland and demonstrates just how much there is still to be discovered out there."
In the early-Christian period, Canna belonged to the monastery on Iona. The island was gifted to the National Trust for Scotland in 1981 by Gaelic scholar John Lorne Campbell.
Thanks to John Billingsley, Ed of Northern Earth for the link http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-18130259
There's a school of thought that has bullaun stones much much older than is suggested in this article and postulates that they are an ancient fertility symbol. This is the only one I've seen which is such a symmetrical shape, others range from single to multi stones nesting in a large stone.
We have some, here's one, http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=6333359 just type Bullaun into our search engine for others.
As for cursing...yet another misappropriation of something ancient?
Rune
[ This message was edited by: Runemage on 2012-05-20 13:42 ]
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