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Forum: Stones Forum
Moderated by : Andy B , TimPrevett , coldrum , Klingon , MickM , TheCaptain , bat400 , davidmorgan , Runemage , SolarMegalith , sem
Respond to: Stonehenge was based on a \'magical\' auditory illusion, says scientist
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tiompan
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Messages: 2708
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|  New Message Posted!2012-02-17 22:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtpGyZif-h8
No need for circular breathing on the pipes as they have a bag .
There are plenty of problems with this , I first flagged it up 26/9/11http://www.megalithic.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=Forum&file=viewtopic&topic=4764&forum=4&start=20
I asked Steve on an archaeoacoustic forum "Did the participants walk in only one direction i.e.
clockwise or anti-clockwise ?. I am thinking of the different pitch and in this case possibly different interference perception dependent on which ear
(right or left ) was exposed to the pitch(es) .
Was there a reason for two sound sources and if so why the same pitch , and was that to avoid difference tones .? "
Other problems are the diameter of the "circle was 7.6 m , the height of the sarsens but a long way from anything like any of the circle diameters at the monument . No control .The wind generator would have had an auditory impact too etc . Didn't get a reply
George
Quote:
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On 2012-02-17 21:39, Andy B wrote:
Circular breathing is pretty difficult on low resistance wind instruments such as the flute. Didgeridoos and suchlike won't exhibit this effect - you need a high frequency pure tone - as close to a sine wave as possible - ie a flute. Bagpipes wouldn't work either, unless someone invented some sort of 'flute bagpipes'. A reedy bagpipe sound is rich in harmonics. The harmonic frequencies from the two instruments won't create standing wave cancellations in the same places in space as the fundamental tones, so you won't get same strong cancellation effect. And as I said you also need two fixed amplitudes and closely fixed point sources for the effect to work.
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[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2012-02-17 22:42 ]
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Andy B
Joined:
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Messages: 7050
from Surrey, UK
 ON-Line
| New Message Posted!2012-02-17 21:39
Circular breathing is pretty difficult on low resistance wind instruments such as the flute. Didgeridoos and suchlike won't exhibit this effect - you need a high frequency pure tone - as close to a sine wave as possible - ie a flute. Bagpipes wouldn't work either, unless someone invented some sort of 'flute bagpipes'. A reedy bagpipe sound is rich in harmonics. The harmonic frequencies from the two instruments won't create standing wave cancellations in the same places in space as the fundamental tones, so you won't get same strong cancellation effect. And as I said you also need two fixed amplitudes and closely fixed point sources for the effect to work.
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tiompan
Joined:
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| New Message Posted!2012-02-17 13:52
Of course it 's more nonsense . Like all the recent archaeoacoustic theories the proponents tend not to be an acoustician ,you get archaeologists , musicians , cyberneticians and all make fundamental errors never mind the basic premise being unlikely .
The circular breathing technique allows wind players to play continuous pitches for long periods .
George
Quote:
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On 2012-02-17 00:12, Andy B wrote:
I'm not putting this in the news as it strikes me as utter nonsense. I'm all for acoustic research at ancient sites but please.
The Neolithic builders of Stonehenge were inspired by "auditory illusions" when they drew up blueprints for the ancient monument, a researcher claims.
The radical proposal follows a series of experiments by US scientist Steven Waller, who claims the positions of the standing stones match patterns in sound waves created by a pair of musical instruments.
Waller, an independent researcher in California, said the layout of the stones corresponded to the regular spacing of loud and quiet sounds created by acoustic interference when two instruments played the same note continuously.
In Neolithic times, the nature of sound waves – and their ability to reinforce and cancel each other out – would have been mysterious enough to verge on the magical, Waller said. Quiet patches created by acoustic interference could have led to the "auditory illusion" that invisible objects stood between a listener and the instruments being played, he added.
To investigate whether instruments could create such auditory illusions, Waller rigged two flutes to an air pump so they played the same note continuously. When he walked around them in a circle, the volume rose, fell and rose again as the sound waves interfered with each other. "What I found unexpected was how I experienced those regions of quiet. It felt like I was being sheltered from the sound. As if something was protecting me. It gave me a feeling of peace and quiet," he said.
It then goes on to demonstrate auditory interference pattern created when two instruments play the same note continuously
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/feb/16/stonehenge-based-magical-auditory-illusion?commentpage=last#end-of-comments
How on earth is this relevant to the practicalities of an ancient society? In order to get strong, static cancellations in the sound you would need equal and unvarying sound pressure levels from each instrument, and for the sources to be from the same two points in space.
How precisely would two flute players do this in practice without an air pump? ie having to take breaths and carry on this trick for any length of time. I have heard plenty of psuedoscientific theories about Stonehenge and this is is up with the best of them for impracticality!
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Runemage
Joined:
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| New Message Posted!2012-02-17 13:27
I thought it was a spoof article what with the acronym for the organisation (AAAS) and these quotes
"...they would have felt there were these massive objects arranged in a ring. It would have been this completely baffling experience"
"The site was originally a burial ground, but may also have been a place for healing."
Rune
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tDrusin
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from charleston, sc usa
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| New Message Posted!2012-02-17 00:52
Marijuana is medicinally legal in California. 
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Andy B
Joined:
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Messages: 7050
from Surrey, UK
ON-Line
| New Message Posted!2012-02-17 00:12
I'm not putting this in the news as it strikes me as utter nonsense. I'm all for acoustic research at ancient sites but please.
The Neolithic builders of Stonehenge were inspired by "auditory illusions" when they drew up blueprints for the ancient monument, a researcher claims.
The radical proposal follows a series of experiments by US scientist Steven Waller, who claims the positions of the standing stones match patterns in sound waves created by a pair of musical instruments.
Waller, an independent researcher in California, said the layout of the stones corresponded to the regular spacing of loud and quiet sounds created by acoustic interference when two instruments played the same note continuously.
In Neolithic times, the nature of sound waves – and their ability to reinforce and cancel each other out – would have been mysterious enough to verge on the magical, Waller said. Quiet patches created by acoustic interference could have led to the "auditory illusion" that invisible objects stood between a listener and the instruments being played, he added.
To investigate whether instruments could create such auditory illusions, Waller rigged two flutes to an air pump so they played the same note continuously. When he walked around them in a circle, the volume rose, fell and rose again as the sound waves interfered with each other. "What I found unexpected was how I experienced those regions of quiet. It felt like I was being sheltered from the sound. As if something was protecting me. It gave me a feeling of peace and quiet," he said.
It then goes on to demonstrate auditory interference pattern created when two instruments play the same note continuously
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/feb/16/stonehenge-based-magical-auditory-illusion?commentpage=last#end-of-comments
How on earth is this relevant to the practicalities of an ancient society? In order to get strong, static cancellations in the sound you would need equal and unvarying sound pressure levels from each instrument, and for the sources to be from the same two points in space.
How precisely would two flute players do this in practice without an air pump? ie having to take breaths and carry on this trick for any length of time. I have heard plenty of psuedoscientific theories about Stonehenge and this is is up with the best of them for impracticality!
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