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Forum:  Stones Forum
Moderated by : Andy B , TimPrevett , coldrum , Klingon , MickM , TheCaptain , bat400 , davidmorgan , Runemage , SolarMegalith , sem Respond to:  Petroglyphs, the Bend in the Boyne
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Runemage



Joined:
15-07-2005


Messages: 2412
from UK

OFF-Line

 New Message Posted!2010-08-13 00:51   
Hi Sem,

I like the secret signs idea, very well thought out.

So much is there under our noses and we haven't got a clue.

At the presentation I had half a mind to tell people they were military signs to deal with a possible uprising against the govt!

Tee Hee, I must admit to having a wicked sense of humour as well and being very tempted to make up explanations for things.

Rune

chimera



Joined:
09-09-2006


Messages: 1508
from Australia

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 New Message Posted!2010-08-12 22:56   
To prevent rebellion, government maps are using PW (Place of Worship) instead of cross and steeple symbols for churches. In Holy Ireland, Catholics toured the 12 Stations of the Cross in church windows as a form of instruction. These are a notional map and memory aide, and destination for pilgrims. Maybe ancients earned merit by doing all the sites marked on a Tara stone.

sem



Joined:
12-11-2003


Messages: 1705
from Bridgend,S.Wales

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 New Message Posted!2010-08-12 22:11   
Thanks Rune,
I should have guessed you would know!
My brother told me about 4yrs ago when he was working in a repair shop that dealt mainly with HGVs and the like.
I used the "secret signs" idea for the presentation in Brecon and leading up to it asked every friend/acquaintance if they knew what they meant. My mate Nick, who is real, and until recently was a SE driving instructor, came close, but said they were not mandatory knowledge for a driving test. Brother Rob couldn't remember telling me but did find it in his driving theory book (how did he pass his theory test?). Manchester Pete, who's repping job covers an area from South Wales to the end of Cornwall, said he's never seen them.
At the presentation I had half a mind to tell people they were military signs to deal with a possible uprising against the govt! Pure bs, but in a different context I'd put money on people believing it.
Sem




chimera



Joined:
09-09-2006


Messages: 1508
from Australia

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 New Message Posted!2010-08-12 11:55   
Probably the Neolithic people didn't put the stone on a wagon as a map to find their way around the village, as wagons didn't have mileage dials. Institutions today have "you are here >" schematic layouts, where size does not matter. A small building for an important event may get the biggest lettering.
Many have commented on modern (3000 BP) Irish similarities with Vedic culture (law, music, legend), and the contact /origin was evidently in the Thrace-Hittite regions. Aboriginals had ancient roots in SW Asia, and apparently from 2000 BP had contacts with Hindu Indian kingdoms in Indonesia. North Australia has about 600 Sanskrit words borrowed from Macassan fishing boats in annual visits._ Asian Studies. ANU Canberra.
The Boyne river-goddess Dana of Eire is seen in the water goddess Danu in Bali Indonesia, from Vedic Indian tradition. (J Koch. UWales). The word may be in Goonda DANI Bulu,a water deity of Aboriginals, where Goonda is the appropriate Indian term, and Bulu fits the Polynesian underworld deity (also with Indian Sanskrit contact).
Stone age people likely had the same need to preserve doctrines by engraving.


tiompan



Joined:
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Messages: 2644

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 New Message Posted!2010-08-12 10:00   


Quote:

On 2010-08-12 06:29, chimera wrote:
So a symbol can relate to a road map, with detailed directions.
This resembles Aboriginal abstract "maps" :
___[
MEANING OF SYMBOLS

The use of a fixed set of symbols would seem to make interpretation easy, but only those directly involved in creating a ground painting can give its meaning with absolute authority. Related mythological sites, on the traveling route of some Dreamtime creative animal, might well have very fine shades of variation. Again, bird tracks are very similar, as are several other animal tracks. Further, some symbols have a multiplicity of meanings; a series of concentric circles can mean a camp-fire, home, cave, rock-hole, clay-pan, spring, tree or mountain – the list is not exhaustive; a sinuous line can mean a snake, running water, lightning, a hair-string girdle, native bee honey storage, or a bark rope.

LEVELS OF INTERPRETATION

A single design element can in itself have several interpretation levels. Thus-to take a hypothetical example-a circle might be described, in the secular context, as a particular geographical region; become a specific water-hole to a first-stage initiate; be a bundle of hair-string carried by a mythological hunter who visited the water-hole to a second stage ritual man; be extended to mean an object made from the hair-string to a still more knowledgeable man; and have its meaning extended even further to the complete ritual man. Each revelation is made only after the older custodians are certain that the previous step, with its associated songs and ceremonial detail, is fully comprehended by the younger men.


FROM THE GROUND TO CANVAS

Even if an outsider may be privilege enough to be shown a ground painting, it is highly doubtful that any person other than a man of central Australian Aboriginal origin will ever be permitted to understand its ultimate meaning. .To see the geographical locations of mythological events is to gain an important aid to understanding of ground painting and associated ceremonies. It may well be useful to see them in different weather conditions, fully appreciate the mythological associations. Thus, Watulpunyu, a Walpiri Water Dreaming site in the depiction of which there are several circle (representing rock holes) and sinuous lines (representing both mythological lighting and running water), leaps into life when you visit it.
Including Extracts from “The Aboriginal Arts and Culture Centre, Alice Springs “

ICONOGRAPHY IN DESERT ART

A Dreaming name denotes a Dreamtime being, a site associated with that Dreaming and the country surrounding that site. Woodrow W. Denham, Alyawarre Ethnographic Archive

Central desert Aboriginal art depicts the Dreaming of their Ancestors. The artist paints the journeys, actions, sacred objects, designs and sites associated with their Ancestors.

The artists use iconography and abstract imagery to depict the sacred ceremony or the site pertaining to that dreaming.

The paintings refer to the sacred sites where the Dreaming occurs and where the power is still all pervasive. The symbols or signs denote places and sites or the tracks and pathways of the Ancestor. The Dreamings, often painted from an aerial perspective are abstract in form and lend themselves to various interpretations – the sacred and the public.

Widely used imagery includes for example, concentric circles usually represent a group of people or site or place, a campsite or a water/rock hole. These are places of great significance. The u-shapes can represent the sitting figure and the indentation they leave with their haunches. Tracks of the Ancestral beings and animals are represented by meandering or straight lines. Arcs can represent boomerangs. Short straight lines represent digging sticks or clapping sticks and spears. A morass of dots can represent the topography of the artist’s country or homeland.

DOT PAINTING

There are several theories on the origination of the dot-style of painting. One theory is that they imitate the markings for the ground ceremonial paintings. These ephemeral works are fashioned out of daubed dots of ochres and bird down and other materials. Spinifex, bushes, shrubs and other clumped grasses form a dot-like pattern across the desert landscape resulting in a dotted landscape when viewed from above. The Aboriginal views his country – his ancestral sites – from this aerial perspective.]





Good summary C . Dunno how it helps with explaining rock art from an entirely different spatio temporal and cultural context . Munn (although her structuralism has many opponents today ) would have it that the Walbiri (or whatever the latest spelling ) motifs were almost iconic but not geographically accurate .When there is a suggestion that the rock art is at least relatively topographically accurate we can at least compare ,but if inaccurate how can we judge ?. Likewise if it is a case of non Oz based "Dreaming "paths how can we possibly know that similar beliefs were held and also represented .

George

chimera



Joined:
09-09-2006


Messages: 1508
from Australia

OFF-Line

 New Message Posted!2010-08-12 06:29   
So a symbol can relate to a road map, with detailed directions.
This resembles Aboriginal abstract "maps" :
___[
MEANING OF SYMBOLS

The use of a fixed set of symbols would seem to make interpretation easy, but only those directly involved in creating a ground painting can give its meaning with absolute authority. Related mythological sites, on the traveling route of some Dreamtime creative animal, might well have very fine shades of variation. Again, bird tracks are very similar, as are several other animal tracks. Further, some symbols have a multiplicity of meanings; a series of concentric circles can mean a camp-fire, home, cave, rock-hole, clay-pan, spring, tree or mountain – the list is not exhaustive; a sinuous line can mean a snake, running water, lightning, a hair-string girdle, native bee honey storage, or a bark rope.

LEVELS OF INTERPRETATION

A single design element can in itself have several interpretation levels. Thus-to take a hypothetical example-a circle might be described, in the secular context, as a particular geographical region; become a specific water-hole to a first-stage initiate; be a bundle of hair-string carried by a mythological hunter who visited the water-hole to a second stage ritual man; be extended to mean an object made from the hair-string to a still more knowledgeable man; and have its meaning extended even further to the complete ritual man. Each revelation is made only after the older custodians are certain that the previous step, with its associated songs and ceremonial detail, is fully comprehended by the younger men.


FROM THE GROUND TO CANVAS

Even if an outsider may be privilege enough to be shown a ground painting, it is highly doubtful that any person other than a man of central Australian Aboriginal origin will ever be permitted to understand its ultimate meaning. .To see the geographical locations of mythological events is to gain an important aid to understanding of ground painting and associated ceremonies. It may well be useful to see them in different weather conditions, fully appreciate the mythological associations. Thus, Watulpunyu, a Walpiri Water Dreaming site in the depiction of which there are several circle (representing rock holes) and sinuous lines (representing both mythological lighting and running water), leaps into life when you visit it.
Including Extracts from “The Aboriginal Arts and Culture Centre, Alice Springs “

ICONOGRAPHY IN DESERT ART

A Dreaming name denotes a Dreamtime being, a site associated with that Dreaming and the country surrounding that site. Woodrow W. Denham, Alyawarre Ethnographic Archive

Central desert Aboriginal art depicts the Dreaming of their Ancestors. The artist paints the journeys, actions, sacred objects, designs and sites associated with their Ancestors.

The artists use iconography and abstract imagery to depict the sacred ceremony or the site pertaining to that dreaming.

The paintings refer to the sacred sites where the Dreaming occurs and where the power is still all pervasive. The symbols or signs denote places and sites or the tracks and pathways of the Ancestor. The Dreamings, often painted from an aerial perspective are abstract in form and lend themselves to various interpretations – the sacred and the public.

Widely used imagery includes for example, concentric circles usually represent a group of people or site or place, a campsite or a water/rock hole. These are places of great significance. The u-shapes can represent the sitting figure and the indentation they leave with their haunches. Tracks of the Ancestral beings and animals are represented by meandering or straight lines. Arcs can represent boomerangs. Short straight lines represent digging sticks or clapping sticks and spears. A morass of dots can represent the topography of the artist’s country or homeland.

DOT PAINTING

There are several theories on the origination of the dot-style of painting. One theory is that they imitate the markings for the ground ceremonial paintings. These ephemeral works are fashioned out of daubed dots of ochres and bird down and other materials. Spinifex, bushes, shrubs and other clumped grasses form a dot-like pattern across the desert landscape resulting in a dotted landscape when viewed from above. The Aboriginal views his country – his ancestral sites – from this aerial perspective.]



Runemage



Joined:
15-07-2005


Messages: 2412
from UK

OFF-Line

 New Message Posted!2010-08-11 23:16   
Does anyone know what the Black/Yellow squares, circles, triangles and diamonds mean?


They are fixed-route diversions usually off major roads/motorways so if there's an accident at a certain junction, police can close it, direct traffic to follow say the black squares to rejoin at a safe distance.







sem



Joined:
12-11-2003


Messages: 1705
from Bridgend,S.Wales

OFF-Line

 New Message Posted!2010-08-11 23:01   
Maps are, and may always have been symbolic. To read an OS map requires training, to read road signs requires training. There are some icons on road signs that no-one seems to know anything about.
Does anyone know what the Black/Yellow squares, circles, triangles and diamonds mean?
They are there for "those who have the eyes to see."
Once you are in the know, they are obvious. If you aren't in the know, why are you driving a car let alone discussing Neolithic maps?

Yes, I know you are going to say "Not seen them." LOOK



chimera



Joined:
09-09-2006


Messages: 1508
from Australia

OFF-Line

 New Message Posted!2010-08-11 11:41   
Would the symbols be Neolithic Advanced Maths for the Higgs Boson?

vlad



Joined:
13-05-2006


Messages: 1291
from Stockholm

OFF-Line

 New Message Posted!2010-08-10 08:54   
If you met Liz Henderson, you`d not regret. You could ask her e.g. about her opinion what kind of oral narratives your petroglyph "maps" could have been supports for. Well; if you think your modern Protestant narrative explains it all, it`s your loss not mine. Good bye.

[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2010-08-10 09:53 ]

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