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Pictures from the Past: Art and Symbols of the Neolithic and Bronze Age |
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Forum: Stones Forum
Moderated by : Andy B , TimPrevett , coldrum , Klingon , MickM , TheCaptain , bat400 , davidmorgan , Runemage , SolarMegalith , sem
Respond to: Stonehenge Bluestones: New research disproves human transport theory
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Andy B
Joined:
13-02-2001
Messages: 7001
from Surrey, UK
 OFF-Line
|  New Message Posted!2008-12-28 20:17
An article about this book here:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2008/12/26/frosty-debate-over-bluestone-mystery-of-stonehenge-91466-22542421/
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chimera
Joined:
09-09-2006
Messages: 1508
from Australia
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| New Message Posted!2008-10-04 11:24
At 6000 BP, Alpine jadeite supply was decreasing and horses were being domesticated. This may mean that transport of axes became easier , (and so rarity value decreased?), or on the contrary that a more aggressive horse-culture decreased their safe supply.
?
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chimera
Joined:
09-09-2006
Messages: 1508
from Australia
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| New Message Posted!2008-10-03 22:00
Freight costs and customs raised the invoice charge for silk, spices and fully-imported moon-rock deposits.
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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2654
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2008-10-03 18:47
Quote:
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On 2008-10-03 18:27, chimera wrote:
Tin was going from Cornwall to Germany for faience jewellery which then went in all directions. It would be interesting if status axes came from really long distances. Perhaps distance increased the status?
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That's the point , not only a great distance but from a place that might be considered dangerous although maybe not as much as a deskbound archaeo might consider it . These places are all accessible , no rope need . Plus workmanship and you have glamour aplenty .
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chimera
Joined:
09-09-2006
Messages: 1508
from Australia
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| New Message Posted!2008-10-03 18:27
Tin was going from Cornwall to Germany for faience jewellery which then went in all directions. It would be interesting if status axes came from really long distances. Perhaps distance increased the status?
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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2654
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2008-10-03 17:26
Quote:
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On 2008-10-03 05:45, chimera wrote:
Karloff,
Have you been drinking and HD driving? Stonh. lintels were 2500, Mycenae was 1000 years later.
[The dry masonry in the nucleus of the pyramid of Pepi I at south Saqqara. He is the 3rd king of the 6th dynasty 2500 BC. Seen over the entrance, a granite lintel spanning the corridor width, ].
Are polished stone axes necessarily an indication that the source stone was sacred ? Stone that survived travel of x miles, and the stress of building work, without cracking, was good stone. Jewellery may of be semi-precious stone, and marble in Rome's churches has semi-sacred effect. Perhaps bluestone etc. is neither common nor sacred, just high status like the priests who needed to impress the pyramid of people.
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Hello C , often axes are found as deposits / grave goods that are in perfect shape , unused and expertly finished .These axes are usually from distant sources and usually of inferior quality to the local source . One possible explanation is that they are obviously non-utilitarian and more than likely status symbols /gifts brought from afar and possibly dangerous places like Langdale ,the Alps etc .The source of the axe factories are always more difficult to access than other sites where the quality may be superior .
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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2654
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2008-10-03 17:13
Quote:
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On 2008-10-03 08:07, mountainman wrote:
[quote]
I can't find any reference to axe deposition at Stonehenge but fwiw Josh Pollard mentions that at Woodhenge there were two deposits of rare chalk axes and another group 1 axe from Cornwall discovered by Cunnington .
George
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I agree -- from the maps of axe distribution I've seen they appear to be rather rare in the Salisbury plain area. I think the point being made by Williams-Thorpe, Chris Jones and others is that the Preselite axes found in other parts of England seem to liunk back to the same assemblage of stones as the Stonehenge bluestones. The Preselite axes found in Wales were quite different as a group. That argues for cultural contacts / trading between Stonehenge and other parts of England, but NOT with West Wales. The cultural contacts there seem to have been much more within Wales and with SE Ireland. From what I understand, that seems to match up with the eviodence of other megalithic structures, burial traditions etc. Have I got that right? 
[/quote]
Hello MM cultural contact or lack is difficult to prove in prehistory but I think it's fair to say that within Britain contact between the extremities Orkney, Dorset ,Ireland etc were common place ,pottery styles being an obvious common denominator .You could also add in to the mix the Atlantic countries and central Europe too which supplied the architecture for early tombs and the common artwork in passage graves as well as ,again ,pottery styles , even a posh archer , I doubt if west Wales would be excluded from the mix .
George
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chimera
Joined:
09-09-2006
Messages: 1508
from Australia
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2008-10-03 09:47
Karloff,
That's OK, I enioy a drink myself, but 2 pm is a bit early, moderation and all that. Sometimes I imagine time warps, such that all the empires existed together in Roman times. Explosive comes to mind.
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karloff
Joined:
20-10-2006
Messages: 604
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2008-10-03 09:16
Quote:
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On 2008-10-03 05:45, chimera wrote:
Karloff,
Have you been drinking and HD driving? Stonh. lintels were 2500, Mycenae was 1000 years later.
[The dry masonry in the nucleus of the pyramid of Pepi I at south Saqqara. He is the 3rd king of the 6th dynasty 2500 BC. Seen over the entrance, a granite lintel spanning the corridor width, ].
Are polished stone axes necessarily an indication that the source stone was sacred ? Stone that survived travel of x miles, and the stress of building work, without cracking, was good stone. Jewellery may of be semi-precious stone, and marble in Rome's churches has semi-sacred effect. Perhaps bluestone etc. is neither common nor sacred, just high status like the priests who needed to impress the pyramid of people.
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Chimera
Nope, just flipped time and bodies to became Indigo Jones for a moment!
Taking Jacquetta Hawkes' quote literally I decided that we deserve to have the "mysteries of SH" solved by google and photobucket. 
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mountainman
Joined:
30-08-2008
Messages: 28
from Pembrokeshire
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2008-10-03 08:07
Quote:
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I can't find any reference to axe deposition at Stonehenge but fwiw Josh Pollard mentions that at Woodhenge there were two deposits of rare chalk axes and another group 1 axe from Cornwall discovered by Cunnington .
George
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I agree -- from the maps of axe distribution I've seen they appear to be rather rare in the Salisbury plain area. I think the point being made by Williams-Thorpe, Chris Jones and others is that the Preselite axes found in other parts of England seem to liunk back to the same assemblage of stones as the Stonehenge bluestones. The Preselite axes found in Wales were quite different as a group. That argues for cultural contacts / trading between Stonehenge and other parts of England, but NOT with West Wales. The cultural contacts there seem to have been much more within Wales and with SE Ireland. From what I understand, that seems to match up with the eviodence of other megalithic structures, burial traditions etc. Have I got that right?
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