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Pictures from the Past: Art and Symbols of the Neolithic and Bronze Age |
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Forum: Stones Forum
Moderated by : Andy B , TimPrevett , coldrum , Klingon , MickM , TheCaptain , bat400 , davidmorgan , Runemage , SolarMegalith , sem
Respond to: Offerings at stones
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MuddyMick
Joined:
12-05-2006
Messages: 1237
 OFF-Line
|  New Message Posted!2007-08-08 10:17
Quote:
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On 2007-08-04 11:37, Chyknel2 wrote:
"This thread is fascinating, but as it's "aged" it is becoming a bit difficult to follow."
Fascinating yes, and unresolved. Its a turf war. What is the valid use of something over which the community at large has rights? Should a minority be allowed to exercise minority rights, since that is a crucial element of democracy? Or should the majority will be respected, since that is also a crucial element of democracy?
Not a megalithic question at heart. And most certainly not one to be entrusted to be resolved justly in the Mysteries forum since unilateral minority self-serving decisions are most certainly a negation of democratic process.
Its an issue best discussed in terms of political philosophy, a subject about which I know a thing or two. Not that I'd be employing long words, even though I know quite a few in that field, in the hope of cowing the opposition and giving the impression my opinion was somehow more valid and authoritative. That would be transparent and crass.
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So whats new?
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Chyknel2
Joined:
27-05-2007
Messages: 2258
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2007-08-04 11:37
"This thread is fascinating, but as it's "aged" it is becoming a bit difficult to follow."
Fascinating yes, and unresolved. Its a turf war. What is the valid use of something over which the community at large has rights? Should a minority be allowed to exercise minority rights, since that is a crucial element of democracy? Or should the majority will be respected, since that is also a crucial element of democracy?
Not a megalithic question at heart. And most certainly not one to be entrusted to be resolved justly in the Mysteries forum since unilateral minority self-serving decisions are most certainly a negation of democratic process.
Its an issue best discussed in terms of political philosophy, a subject about which I know a thing or two. Not that I'd be employing long words, even though I know quite a few in that field, in the hope of cowing the opposition and giving the impression my opinion was somehow more valid and authoritative. That would be transparent and crass.
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bat400
Joined:
10-04-2006
Messages: 1332
from South Central Indiana, US
OFF-Line
|  New Message Posted!2007-08-04 04:16
A quick note from an administrator:
To improve accessibility of the forum, can we all avoid answering our own postings and using excessive quoting? This thread is fascinating, but as it's "aged" it is becoming a bit difficult to follow.
Thank you, all.
[ This message was edited by: bat400 on 2007-08-04 04:19 ]
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MuddyMick
Joined:
12-05-2006
Messages: 1237
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2007-08-03 11:42
Quote:
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On 2007-08-01 14:44, MuddyMick wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-07-31 20:22, ragnarok wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-07-27 13:03, MuddyMick wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-07-26 22:50, ragnarok wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-07-26 22:14, Aluta wrote:
[quote]
I'm not for or against people having rules against it if that is what they need in order to feel good. I'm just pointing out that it will happen regardless, because it happens anywhere that people feel reverence, whether it's after Diana's death, a place where someone died along the road, a grave, a high and lonely lookout on a hill, a well, church, or a site. It happens, you know? When people feel deeply they have to express it, and some will always choose this method.
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But these ancient stones have absolutely nothing to do with any present day death.(Unless they died or were buried at the site of course!). We have our more modern churches/chapels etc. if anyone wants to pay reverence in this way by leaving dying flowers.
Using our prehistoric sites in this way is not appropriate.
I understand that money is left with the hope that more money will be gained by the leaver & as for the voodoo dolls etc. Well, that's just plain evil!
I'm all for paying reverence but no-one NEEDS to leave anything behind. Mental reverence SHOULD be enough.
Interestingly I have just received a email from someone I know who occasionally looks on this site, but doesn't contribute, who read my last. She recently met up with a couple of people who left offerings at a stone circle last Easter. The girl left flowers; about a month later a close friend died. The guy left a coin; he was made redundant from his job a week later & hasn't found work since!
As neither coins or flowers would be understood by any ancient spirits which may be present at these sites perhaps this is how they 'read' the offerings left. Maybe it's a valuable lesson: be careful what you leave & what you wish for!
[/quote]
HI raggy,
Firstly how do you know these stones have nothing to do with death, modern or otherwise?
modern day chapels and churches may be a tad inappropriate for many who are marginalised by these said faiths.
As for the phrase "just plain evil" obviously emotive and without merit in any debate.
The rest of the 'majickal thinking' speaks volumes!
Regards
mm
[/quote]
MM. Truly sorry that you find my postings too hard to read/understand.
As I said these stones have nothing to do with any modern day death - unless someone died 'on site'. How can they?
Chapels/Churches may well be inappropriate for many - but so are Stones in that case as we weren't born over 4,000 years ago!
'Plain Evil' DOES apply to people who leave 'voodoo' dolls (complete with little sticks through the heart) at these ancient sites - presumably you think differently?
Perhaps it's more appropriate for many to leave these offerings outside the Supermarket/ Police Station/DIY Store/ Garden Centre/Pub/Land Fill site....or just in their bins?
[/quote]
This is utter twaddle!
[/quote]
And Raggy In the words of the very famous Baron von Veitybaum " you are a goose muffler young man"
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MuddyMick
Joined:
12-05-2006
Messages: 1237
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2007-08-01 14:44
Quote:
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On 2007-07-31 20:22, ragnarok wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-07-27 13:03, MuddyMick wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-07-26 22:50, ragnarok wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-07-26 22:14, Aluta wrote:
[quote]
I'm not for or against people having rules against it if that is what they need in order to feel good. I'm just pointing out that it will happen regardless, because it happens anywhere that people feel reverence, whether it's after Diana's death, a place where someone died along the road, a grave, a high and lonely lookout on a hill, a well, church, or a site. It happens, you know? When people feel deeply they have to express it, and some will always choose this method.
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But these ancient stones have absolutely nothing to do with any present day death.(Unless they died or were buried at the site of course!). We have our more modern churches/chapels etc. if anyone wants to pay reverence in this way by leaving dying flowers.
Using our prehistoric sites in this way is not appropriate.
I understand that money is left with the hope that more money will be gained by the leaver & as for the voodoo dolls etc. Well, that's just plain evil!
I'm all for paying reverence but no-one NEEDS to leave anything behind. Mental reverence SHOULD be enough.
Interestingly I have just received a email from someone I know who occasionally looks on this site, but doesn't contribute, who read my last. She recently met up with a couple of people who left offerings at a stone circle last Easter. The girl left flowers; about a month later a close friend died. The guy left a coin; he was made redundant from his job a week later & hasn't found work since!
As neither coins or flowers would be understood by any ancient spirits which may be present at these sites perhaps this is how they 'read' the offerings left. Maybe it's a valuable lesson: be careful what you leave & what you wish for!
[/quote]
HI raggy,
Firstly how do you know these stones have nothing to do with death, modern or otherwise?
modern day chapels and churches may be a tad inappropriate for many who are marginalised by these said faiths.
As for the phrase "just plain evil" obviously emotive and without merit in any debate.
The rest of the 'majickal thinking' speaks volumes!
Regards
mm
[/quote]
MM. Truly sorry that you find my postings too hard to read/understand.
As I said these stones have nothing to do with any modern day death - unless someone died 'on site'. How can they?
Chapels/Churches may well be inappropriate for many - but so are Stones in that case as we weren't born over 4,000 years ago!
'Plain Evil' DOES apply to people who leave 'voodoo' dolls (complete with little sticks through the heart) at these ancient sites - presumably you think differently?
Perhaps it's more appropriate for many to leave these offerings outside the Supermarket/ Police Station/DIY Store/ Garden Centre/Pub/Land Fill site....or just in their bins?
[/quote]
This is utter twaddle!
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Chyknel2
Joined:
27-05-2007
Messages: 2258
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2007-08-01 09:25
Aluta - "Many people believe that the stones were..."
Croredy - "how can you possibly KNOW what they origonally were intended to portray?"
Precisely. Lots of people "believe" all sorts of stuff. No-one KNOWS.
So bloody leave the sites alone and stop imposing physical tokens of YOUR beliefs on others.
You two can wriggle and repeat yourselves till 2012 and the Empire of the Lizards but you'll never construct a viable tat-leavers moral charter.
(And I don't even mind a few flowers at sites I just object to people trying to pretend people who do it have a right or that people who object are somehow unreasonable. It is NO different from what a graffiti artist does, selfishly imposing ones own benefit on a communal space. But wriggle on if you wish.)
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BERNARDQUATERMASS
Joined:
19-03-2006
Messages: 653
from Oldham, Lancashire
OFF-Line
|  New Message Posted!2007-08-01 00:55
I agree with Kevin, in that what we see now is just the bare bones of a much more colourful past.
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cropredy
Joined:
01-01-2006
Messages: 5534
from Oxon
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2007-07-31 23:16
Ragnarok,
Keep the D*****G downstairs, don't throw such offerings about here.
The precise points are the points, if you or anyone else can't see that, its not unusual.
Pure and unsullied is rather odd, I percieve the stones as been dressed and painted with stunning colours and faces, not the remnants of times ravages that are now visable.
Unless we fully comprehend the reason and usage of the stones, how can you possibly KNOW what they origonally were intended to portray?
Whats PURE and UNSULLIED?
Kevin
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ragnarok
Joined:
26-06-2006
Messages: 429
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2007-07-31 22:22
Quote:
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On 2007-07-31 21:27, Aluta wrote:
Many people believe that the stones were raised to mark a site that had special qualities before the stones got there, and that it retains those special qualities into the present day. That is why some people see the sites as being relevant to us today in the same way they were relevant to lives when the stones were brought and placed. The stones are seen as markers rather than what made the site special.
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Well considering the FACT that hundreds of Churches have replaced these prehistoric sites, then these people can STILL leave their rotting offerings in the Churchyard, can't they?
I don't think that these stones marked a site of special quality - you forget just how many there once were, destroyed by later agriculture. I know of 4 which have been destroyed this way just in a small area & there's certainly nothing special about where they once stood. I even involved a dowser on one where the exact spot was known - didn't pick up on it.
But whatever I think it's very offensive to leave this rubbish, it spoils the site. I like to see these sites pure & unsullied by modern day selfish idiots.
Lets face it, if you threw this stuff on the streets you'd get fined!
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Aluta
Joined:
06-04-2002
Messages: 1534
from PA, USA
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2007-07-31 21:27
Many people believe that the stones were raised to mark a site that had special qualities before the stones got there, and that it retains those special qualities into the present day. That is why some people see the sites as being relevant to us today in the same way they were relevant to lives when the stones were brought and placed. The stones are seen as markers rather than what made the site special.
In that context of belief, then, the site is a living active place rather than a place whose significance relates to what people did there thousands of years ago. However in some cases, the stones may be seen as enhancing the power or effectiveness of the site for the purposes that cause people to seek the sites out.
I'm not trying to get into an argument about whether or not that view is "right". I'm laying out a way that many people understand these places. In that scenario, the sacredness or power of the places preceded human activity there and would remain relevant to people's lives even if the stone arrangements or henges were demolished. Hence, upon death or other occurrences, some feel moved to bring offerings.
Of course, in the case of the death of a person who was attached to a particular site, then the reason for leaving an offering is different. It''s not uncommon, even for ordinarily rational people to feel the presence of a loved one at places that were especially meaningful to him or her. Whether that sense is imagined or not, it is common for the bereaved to do things, even saying at the same time that they realise it may be pointless, to attempt to use that feeling as a connection to the person lost.
But in those cases, a stone site is just one of many places where people make gestures. Everywhere from a person's back garden to a racetrack to a favourite pub can be among the spots where people do things to honour and try to connect with the dead. It happens. Death of a loved one temporarily changes the way you see the world. Some would say that for a whie you see it more accurately. Others call it a temporary delirium. 
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