Featured Title:
Pictures from the Past: Art and Symbols of the Neolithic and Bronze Age |
 |
| Roads and Trackways of North Wales |
 |
| Login |
|
Don't have an account yet? You can create one. As a registered user you have some advantages like your own home page, fewer ads, and your contributions link to your page. |
| Who's Online |
There are currently, 125 guests and 4 members online.
You are a guest. To join in, please register for free by clicking here |
| |
| Review your Reply |
cropredy
Joined:
01-01-2006
Messages: 5539
from Oxon
 ON-Line
|  New Message Posted!2006-08-08 00:07
Anew Merlinian,
Stunning, cheers.Kevin
|
AnewMerlinian
Joined:
17-12-2004
Messages: 164
 OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2006-08-07 10:49
Autumn Cottonwoods -- Navajo Land
|
AnewMerlinian
Joined:
17-12-2004
Messages: 164
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2006-08-06 13:19
Here's the case as I see it.
1: One of the principal purposes of Hopi rituals was to bring the rain, hence one of the principal roles of the Katsinem was as rain givers, or intermediaries to such.
2: The kachina-doll, (tihu), was considered a seat for its representative spirit.
3: The material 'traditionally' used for making these was 'paako', that is, 'water wood', that is, cottonwood root.
4: The Hopi craftsmen are willing to travel great distances to obtain this material.
To me it's implicit in the above that the wood is considered 'magical', or at least 'uniquely suited' because of both its and the katsinem's affiliations with water, to be the substance used. Were I to deny that to myself, I'd call it a willful act.
I am disappointed that I have not yet found a legend prominently featuring the cottonwood -- in Hopi mythology. It was, however, considered a sacred tree by the Lakota, and a central figure in their Sun Dance.
Quote:
|
On tree day, the day before Sundance begains, a scout is selected to find the cottonwood tree that would stand at the center of the sundance circle. A cottonwood tree is always chosen because it it extrordinarily sacred. It is sacred for two reasons. One, because it was the tree that taught the Lakota how to make a tipi. It's leaves are shaped in the conical pattern of the tipi. Children made play houses from the leaves, which was seen by adults, and so they made their houses in the same pattern. Another reason the cottonwood tree is so sacred is because if you cut an upper limb crosswise, inside will be a perfect five pointed star which represents the presence of the Great Spirit.
Dustyn Medicine Wolf -- Lakota Sundance
|
|
Several things are interesting about the page, which is well read in its entirity. His deliberation before, apparently, releasing priveledged knowledge. The great care afforded the tree itself by the practitioners -- even in cutting it down and transporting it -- something which may also have applied to the Old Ones of Britain. And the presence of round-counter-swastika wallpaper in 4 colors, white, black, red and yellow. In Hopi mythology, colors are important, though the match doesn't quite transpose to the Lakota design, the information is interesting in its own right.
Quote:
|
a. Yellow refers to the North or Northwest;
b. Blue-green refers to the West or Southwest;
c. Red refers to the South or Southeast;
d. White refers to the East or Northeast;
e. All the above colors taken together refer to the Zenith or (the direction) 'up';
f. Black refers to the Nadir or (the direction) 'down.'
Journal of American Studies of Turkey -- the Hopi Kachina Cult
|
|
Interesting material, but the Turkish writer is not, I think, without an anti-'white'-american bias.
Really, my favorite of the pages I've found today, again focussing on the reverence in which the cottonwood was held, comes from Washington State.
Tacamahac, by Eagle Song CCH
To bring this back to the Old Ones of Britain, yes, I think they drank oak-root sap, likely in the high of summer. In doing so I believe they believed they were imbibing the strength of the tree. Whether talismans were also carved from the roots... I like it ...None are mentioned from the great Silbury Hill time capsule, but, beliefs may not have placed them there.
[ This message was edited by: AnewMerlinian on 2006-08-06 13:25 ]
|
flatcap
Joined:
28-05-2006
Messages: 268
from UK
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2006-08-05 23:30
Anew Merlinian, thanks for talking about the Hopi, I have a very special affinity for them and their prophecy.
I have been a 'Pipe carrier' for three years now, initiated by a 'Two spirit' Shaman practicing the traditions of the Cree, these also include the 'Sweat Lodge' and Sun Dances.
As I understand it, nothinng was created without guidance from Spirit, not even a simple childs toy.
I have also worked alone with the 'Medicine Wheel' at 'The Nine Stones', Winterbourne Abbas under dark and full moons. It makes sense to do these things in order to gain a greater perspective and understanding.
MORE POSTS PLEASE!
mike
|
cropredy
Joined:
01-01-2006
Messages: 5539
from Oxon
ON-Line
| New Message Posted!2006-08-05 21:17
Anew Merlinian,
http://www.witcombe.sbc.edu/sacredplaces/trees.html
his other sites om water etc are excellent also.
Kevin
|
bat400
Joined:
10-04-2006
Messages: 1332
from South Central Indiana, US
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2006-08-05 20:47
An interesting set of suppositions. Some of them - may be true.
The quote you include is interesting, but I have to say it is puzzling. As far as I am aware from other readings - any Hopi man has the right or opportunity to carve kachina figure for his children. There is no special "priesthood" associated with it. The only contention concerns whether figure carved by non-Hopi can be considered "Kachinas" and the general view is that true kachina figures are carved by the Hopi alone. (Cheaper Non-Hopi kachinas are available - generally they're not very well made.)
In none of these posts have I denyed that many Hopi carvers believe a aspect of spirit is embodied in their carvings - many carvers believe this, as do many recepients and purchasers of the carvings.
But I've seen nothing yet that indicates that Hopi believe it is cottonwood that allows this embodiment to occur.
I'll merely stop by saying that when I speak to another human face to face, I give them the respect of assuming that they are telling me the truth. I would find it exceedingly patronizing that a stranger would presume to know the details of my belief system and why I do my daily tasks in the way I do, without my telling them so.
|
AnewMerlinian
Joined:
17-12-2004
Messages: 164
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2006-08-05 00:44
Bearing, or direct bearing..? AmerIndians had no, (physical or knowable), contact with the Old Ones of Britain; but since their culture and traditions are much better preserved, one does well look for parallels. In doing so, one is looking at human nature, thus placing one'self in their position doesn't seem outrageous to me. I invite you to look back at the quotes already provided, and will toss in some more to consider.
The cottonwood root has its own word, paako, meaning "water wood". This is a clear sign it was esteemed for its ability, in their desert climate, to find this thing so necessary for life. (see above)
Hopi craftsmen are willing to travel great distances in hopes of finding paako, a sign of value beyond simple practicality. (see above)
The use of cottonwood branches, not perhaps to some a significant difference, is called a 'resort' by the above source.
The same goes on to say, "the real spirit of a tihu is found within". That 'tihu', by another source, is the word for the doll, may appear to dilute the significance; yet the respect traditionally accorded these is what one might give a protective talisman; an object containing, loosely, 'magic'.
(Note here, I use the western word. This is my habit, not my judgement.)
Quote:
| New quote: The Hopi Indians believed in many gods. In the Hopi religion, everything in the world has two forms: the visible object and the spirit form. The Hopi used Kachinas to talk to their gods. . Kachina dolls are reincarnations of the spirit form returned from the clouds. The men of the Hopi tribe have more contact with the supernatural world than the women. "Tihu", or dolls in the Anglicized form, are given by the men who impersonate kachinas to women in their family in order to increase their connection to the spiritual world. Tihu are definitely not playthings, but are a part of the spirit of the kachina. When given to children, Kachina dolls are a part of their religious training.
The Hopi believed the Kachina costume gave magic power to the man who wore it. They felt a man needed magic to talk to the gods. Hopi Kachinas talked to the gods by singing and dancing.
In order to carve a Katsina, a Hopi person must belong to a certain society and has earned the right to carve the doll. In fact unless one belongs to the Hopi society which allows Hopis to carve, anyone, even a Hopi who carves a so called Kachina doll who is not a member of the particular society is making a carving without the proper spiritual authority which renders that carving an evil thing tantamount to a voodoo doll.
Wild Horse, Native American Art
|
|
I take particular note that carvings by the 'uninitiated' are 'evil'. Though some might consider this a sign of clerical control, it also serves as a reinforcement to cultural identity, and a statement of their culture's reserve. (Something often said of the AmerIndian.)
In the legend of the beginning of the Snake cult, the spirit-snake-people the young man met on his journey, (from whom he won his bride), were very reserved at first; and tested him in ways small and large before accepting.
This is the context into which I would put Bat .400's dealings with the Hopi craftsmen. I would expect them to be polite, and reserved, in offering their wares to an outsider for money. When, and if, pressed on deeper cultural issues which, by tradition, the initiated might learn; they could, to my view, fall back on the universal deflective of 'tradition', and let the work speak for itself. The task would be made that much easier when dealing with someone dismissive of 'mythical' thinking...
But there's another, deeper, reason why such discussion may be avoided.
Quote:
| Interestingly, in an apparently unrelated (?) occurrence, the water tank at Rocky Ridge School had been locked, denying access to a wide number of local residents who rely on it since wells are dry.
As an aside, most people consider their wells are dry because of the coal slurry line, the only one of its kind in the world, which takes a billion gallons of water a year from the desert aquifer underlying Black Mesa to slurry ground coal through a pipeline two hundred miles to a Laughlin, Nevada power plant where the coal is fired to generate power to Las Vegas, Los Angeles, and Phoenix, and the water is cleaned and sold to those thirsty cities.
One grandmother told of having had ponds and groves of fruit trees on her land her whole life, ponds now dry, fruit trees dead. This same grandma now must drive 50 round trip miles twice a day to get water for her sheep.
The People's Paths -- NAIIP News
|
|
This comes from a tense standoff between transported Lakota and the Hopi, over rights to perform a Sun Dance.
If 'I' have money to shell out for a katsina-doll, and am 'white', (AmerCaucasian), it implies that this money has roots -- or is entangled with that which has roots -- in injustices which continue to this day. The craftsman hoping for a sale does not want to embarrass, or become angry with, me, a customer whose only crime may be being of the same stock as those who steal the water... which lowers the table... which kills the trees... which drives 'tradition', towards an edge.
|
mithra
Joined:
27-06-2006
Messages: 562
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2006-08-04 20:59
O.K. Kevin, but what did this 'force' do for prehistoric man? Why did they build their sites around it? What did they use it for? And what use could it be to modern day us? Mithra.
|
cropredy
Joined:
01-01-2006
Messages: 5539
from Oxon
ON-Line
| New Message Posted!2006-08-04 20:51
Bat 400,
If you look long and hard enough , you will find people who can measure a set of lines and a force that travels on them at megalithic sites.
The same set of lines and what flows upon them can also be found to disect and centre on many well established and ancient trees, and the more of these lines disecting through the tree, the more successfull the tree will be found to be.
You will also find that at stone circles , that the stones can be found to be placed where many of these lines create geometric patterns of small polygons created around a circuler arrangement where the main set of lines cross at a point.
Where there are several of these crossing points, the geometric patterns created by several centres overlapping will result in strange shapes of circles , known as egg, flattened, ellipse and compound circles.( as the stones are placed on the most powerfull of polygons created by these overlapping points )
I happen to be one of these people who can measure such things.
By closely studying nature and how it uses this force, I have deduced why the megalithic structures were built, to what shape and why, I have further deduced why they were so built and the mind set of the people who built them, they will have known far better than me the benifits to be gained from manipulating this force, exactly as the tree does.
I can therefore well appreciate the reverance and high regard they will have held anything that could be seen to be able to make such use of this force.
I have further deduced that they will have thought of this force as the spirits and lifeforce of all living things.
I can well imagine how they would have thought that the tree was able to communicate with the underworld.
If you can percieve and sort of see this system, then the way to manipulate it , is to copy it as closely and effectively as possible, in the way that you find other life forms in nature do naturally ?
Kevin
|
bat400
Joined:
10-04-2006
Messages: 1332
from South Central Indiana, US
OFF-Line
| New Message Posted!2006-08-04 15:58
Quote:
|
On 2006-08-04 07:26, AnewMerlinian wrote:
'Bat .400',
Perhaps most telling, though, is this:
[quote]
Kachina dolls are traditionally carved from the roots of cottonwood trees which once were abundant on and near the Hopi lands. The Hopi word for cottonwood root is paako, which means water wood, and the cotton-wood root's ability to seek and find abundant water mirrors the ability of the katsinam to do the same for the Hopi people.
Today's carvers may travel hundreds of miles throughout the Southwest looking for this special material. And some Hopi carvers purchase cottonwood roots from outsiders. Other carvers have resorted to using cottonwood branches, while still others have abandoned using cottonwood altogether in favor of a more abundant and easily obtainable material, such as tupelo, a swamp wood from the southeastern United States.
Guide to Hopi Kachina (katsina) Dolls
|
|
I would say, this being my opinion, that I got on base. Out of thin air and my own musings.
[/quote]
I'd argue that the mere mention of a particlar tree in a legend (your example has nothing to do with cottonwood roots finding water, or kachinas) has no bearing on anything in particular including your original comments.
(Google Hopi X legend, and you'll get 84,000 for "Hopi pine legend" and 136,000 for "Hopi television legend" or 25,000 for "Hopi pencil legend." Gee, pine trees, televisions, and pencils must be A LOT more "mythical" to the Hopi than cottonwood trees.)
I DO bow to you on finding an analogy between cottonwood roots and the kachina. *salute*
You found an analogy. But, it doesn't seem to be a statement that the Hopi think the Cottonwood is a "magic tree" (your words) so they use it to make kachina figures. The New Testiment says Christ told a story about a mustard seed. I don't think this means Christians think mustard is magic. (At least I don't think most of them think it is.)
Instead, if you go back and use the magic of google ("kachina carving cottonwood") you'll see the testiments of several Hopi carvers that cottonwood is light, close-grained, takes the stress of carving, and is traditional. If you looked long enough you might find a few who say they use cottonwood roots for their mythic qualities - I didn't, but I didn't look that long since I've already spoken to several carvers in person - the people I bought some of my kachinas from.
Hey, if you look long enough you'll find some people who have found unmeasurable lines of energy associated with prehistoric sites...  Again *salute.*
| |
|
Main News