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<< Our Photo Pages >> Carn Meini - Ancient Mine, Quarry or other Industry in Wales in Pembrokeshire

Submitted by vicky on Thursday, 01 September 2011  Page Views: 40571

Multi-periodSite Name: Carn Meini Alternative Name: Carn Menyn, Carnmenyn
Country: Wales County: Pembrokeshire Type: Ancient Mine, Quarry or other Industry
Nearest Town: Newport  Nearest Village: Mynachlog-Ddu
Map Ref: SN1441432482  Landranger Map Number: 145
Latitude: 51.959765N  Longitude: 4.702493W
Condition:
5Perfect
4Almost Perfect
3Reasonable but with some damage
2Ruined but still recognisable as an ancient site
1Pretty much destroyed, possibly visible as crop marks
0No data.
-1Completely destroyed
3 Ambience:
5Superb
4Good
3Ordinary
2Not Good
1Awful
0No data.
5 Access:
5Can be driven to, probably with disabled access
4Short walk on a footpath
3Requiring a bit more of a walk
2A long walk
1In the middle of nowhere, a nightmare to find
0No data.
3 Accuracy:
5co-ordinates taken by GPS or official recorded co-ordinates
4co-ordinates scaled from a detailed map
3co-ordinates scaled from a bad map
2co-ordinates of the nearest village
1co-ordinates of the nearest town
0no data
4

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External Links:

I have visited· I would like to visit

Preseli360 Serenstar DrewParsons whese001 would like to visit

Andy B: would like to visit The outcrops of rock that are the most likely source of the Stonehenge bluestones, featured in Episode Three of BBC's History of Ancient Britain

Penbron sem Anti_quarian have visited here

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by vicky : The Bluestones outcrop of Carn Meini as viewed from the top. (Vote or comment on this photo)
Bluestones Outcrop Ancient Mine in Pembrokeshire. One of the outcrops from which the famous Stonehenge Bluestones probably came from, and most often referred to in legend.

Survey work between 2002 and 2004 by the Strumble-Preseli Ancient Communities and Environment Study (SPACES) recorded an enclosure on the upper part of the outcrop consisting of a steep-sided promontory with a bank of stones across its neck. Although only around 3,500 square metres in area the enclosure contains several dolerite outcrops, each naturally fractured into shapes that could be formed into columns. Semi-worked megaliths lay scattered around apparently having been simply levered out from the larger outcrops. It is debatable whether these "semi-worked megaliths" are prehistoric or recent, since this area has been used by the farming community for at least 300 years for the collection of stone gateposts, lintels and building slabs.

Geochemical analysis has shown that some of the bluestones from the inner horseshoe at Stonehenge probably came from Carn Menyn, Carngoedog, Carnbreseb, Cerrigmarchogion and other sites in the Preseli Hills, while rhyolite fragments may have come from Carnalw and further afield.

Evidence for prehistoric and later exploitation of the stone at Carn Menyn has been found despite the site's remoteness. Two nearby chapels and many houses in the area were built from Carn Menyn stone. However, this stone was not used preferentially in megalithic or ritual structures—stone from all of the outcrops or tors on Mynydd Preseli has been used in buildings and field boundaries, so long as access by horse-drawn sleds and carts was possible.

In April 2005 an excavation at the site clarified the extent of the enclosure but did not retrieve any cultural material.

The name means "Butter Rock". It is sometimes called Carn Meini ("Rock of Stones"), but this is a modern corruption of the original name. It sits on top of the Preseli ridge, close to the stone setting of Bedd Arthur and is believed by some to have been the main source for the bluestones used at Stonehenge. It consists of an outcrop of white spotted dolerite similar to that of other tors in the area, and several other prehistoric sites have been identified nearby. The mountain-top setting provides commanding views over the Gower Peninsula and across Cardigan Bay to the Llŷn Peninsula.

Pembrokeshire had been considered the source of the bluestones since Sir Andrew Ramsey first suggested it as a contender in the mid-nineteenth century. In the early 1920s HH Thomas was able to resolve this to the Preseli Hills and in 2005 work led by Timothy Darvill and Geoff Wainwright suggested Carn Menyn as the primary quarry. This is disputed by others, and Williams-Thorpe and others from the Open University have suggested that the Stonehenge bluestones came from many different places, with Carngoedog the most likely source for the spotted dolerites.

Source: Wikipedia

Note: Darvill and Wainwright excavations find ceremonial monument earlier than the passage grave at Carn Menyn, inevitable link to the first Stonehenge made
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Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by vicky : The Altar Stone on Carn Meini from where the Bluestones at Stonehenge came. This stone is believed to have been placed here by man rather than by nature. (2 comments - Vote or comment on this photo)

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by MikeMaddams : One of the most enigmatic sites I’ve ever visited. Heavy cloud until we touched the first stones at the summit, then we were blessed with the most stunning sunshine and the colours around us lit up. Beautiful place. (2 comments - Vote or comment on this photo)

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by sem : Beautiful day, beautiful rock. Access from the N is simple via a path. From the S it's much more fun. (1 comment - Vote or comment on this photo)

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by mishkin : This is the modern blue stone (one of a pair) airlifted down in 1989 by helicopter, the other stone went to Stonehenge. (Vote or comment on this photo)

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by PaulM : Some of the natural stones on Carn Meini - the stone at the top shows how the rock fractures naturally into straight edges. (Vote or comment on this photo)

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by mishkin : Carn Meini - site of the bluestones (1 comment)

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by vicky : Another view of the Bluestones outcrop from the top.

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by Horatio : Carn Meini (Bluestones outcrop/ancient mine site) from the southern approach path starting from the Mynachlogddu road. I find this approach better than the well trodden path from the east (Foel Drygarn). You're surrounded by Bluestones as you head upwards that make up the boundaries to individual fields. I like how it (the outcrop) looms over you as you get closer but this really is not a hard ...

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by SandyG : There has been much debate about precisely where the stones at Stonehenge came from. The stone in the centre of this photograph now stands near the visitor centre at Stonehenge. This photograph was taken in 1989 just before the stone was selected for its journey to Stonehenge.

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by Bladup : Carn Meini.

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by sem : Another worked bluestone This one at SN 14626 32477. Again broken and the end intended to go in the ground is shaped the same as the stone in the Darville-Wainwright report. (1 comment)

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by sem : A worked bluestone Found at SN 14332 32385 this is one of the stones identified in the Darville-Wainwright report. http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk/HI/ENG/Heritage+of+Wales/Hidden+Histories+II/Hidden+Histories+2+Episode+1/ Note the shape of the end intended to be placed in the ground.

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by vicky : Some of the Blustones on Carn Meini - the spotted dolerite breaks up naturally into pieces perfect for use as standing stones. (1 comment)

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by Horatio : Carn Meini as seen from Mynachlog-ddu Common, in fact the Mynachlog-ddu standing stone pair are just behind me. From the this side and view the outcrop is known as the sleeping dragon.

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by Horatio : I was up in the Preseli's this evening sitting on top of a large outcrop of Bluestone on Carn Meini watching the sunset. It was only when I had climbed down that I noticed a chip off a large rock and I actually had a bluestone 'palm stone' in my pocket. Its only when it's chipped you can see the blue (green to my eyes) of the stone So for comparison here is a photo of my polished spotted doler... (1 comment)

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by Penbron : The Warrior outcrop and Foel Drygarn beckons.

Carn Meini
Carn Meini submitted by muscipula : 2006, a perilous climb onto the mountain for mystics to test the feelings of the stone to know if sacrifices actually took place. [Admin Note, we don't have a category for mystics and divination, so I have placed this in the Dowsing folder, Rune.]

Carn Meini Tomb
Carn Meini Tomb submitted by rogerkread : Looking north over the 'tomb'. The prominent upright stone to the left is only loosely and superficially 'chocked' in position. It did not seem like an original feature at all.

Carn Meini Tomb
Carn Meini Tomb submitted by rogerkread : Carn Meini as it appears on the approach from off the ridge path looking west.

Carn Meini Tomb
Carn Meini Tomb submitted by rogerkread : Carn Meini in its dramatic landscape setting, looking east.

Carn Meini Tomb
Carn Meini Tomb submitted by postman : Sunrise upon Carn Menyn

Carn Meini Tomb
Carn Meini Tomb submitted by postman : The tomb against the yonder hillside.

Carn Meini Tomb
Carn Meini Tomb submitted by postman : End of March 2014

Carn Meini Tomb
Carn Meini Tomb submitted by postman : See the stone river winding down the hill

Carn Meini Tomb
Carn Meini Tomb submitted by postman : Outcrops

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Nearby sites listing. In the following links * = Image available
 146m NE 34° Carngyfrwy Round Barrow(s) (SN145326)
 189m WSW 253° Carn Menyn - Worked Stone* Ancient Mine, Quarry or other Industry (SN1423132432)
 194m WNW 295° Carn Menyn Marker* Standing Stone (Menhir) (SN1424132570)
 407m WNW 288° Carn Meini Tomb* Chambered Tomb (SN14033262)
 429m WNW 284° Carn Menyn* Round Cairn (SN140326)
 476m NW 318° Carn Gwr Sourthern Cairn Cairn (SN14113285)
 492m W 274° Carn Breseb Pointer* Standing Stone (Menhir) (SN1392332532)
 524m W 269° Stone River Stone* Standing Stone (Menhir) (SN1388832496)
 534m NW 319° Carn Gwr Cairn (SN14083290)
 925m S 180° Carn Menyn (Gate Post?)* Standing Stone (Menhir) (SN1438131557)
 1.0km ENE 57° Carn Ferched Cairn* Round Cairn (SN153330)
 1.1km WSW 254° Carn Arthur* Natural Stone / Erratic / Other Natural Feature (SN1337532232)
 1.2km ENE 67° Carn Ferched Standing Stones* Standing Stones (SN155329)
 1.3km NNW 335° Carn Alw* Ancient Village or Settlement (SN139337)
 1.4km W 269° Bedd Arthur* Stone Circle (SN13053251)
 1.5km W 265° Carn Bica* Cairn (SN129324)
 1.6km ENE 69° Carn Gaseg Ring Cairn (SN159330)
 1.6km SW 221° Craig Talfynedd Ancient Village or Settlement (SN133313)
 1.7km NE 49° Foel Drygarn Cairns* Cairn (SN15773359)
 1.8km N 9° Modern Stone Circle at Ty'r-bwlch* Modern Stone Circle etc (SN1474234210)
 1.8km WNW 295° Carngoedog* Ancient Mine, Quarry or other Industry (SN1283133283)
 1.8km NE 49° Foel Drygarn Fort* Hillfort (SN158336)
 1.8km NE 49° Foel Drygarn Track Ancient Trackway (SN158336)
 1.8km SW 233° Carn Sian Cairn* Not Known (by us) (SN1294231474)
 1.8km SW 236° Carn Sian Linear feature* Stone Row / Alignment (SN1286831525)
View more nearby sites and additional images

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"Carn Meini" | Login/Create an Account | 38 News and Comments
  
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Re: Beyond Stonehenge: Carn Meini and the Preseli bluestones lecture, 30 Nov by Anonymous on Monday, 07 January 2019

I'm looking at the Mesolithic evidence at Mynydd Preseli. Seems that wherever there is an extensive excavation and dating evidence is obtained - the Mesolithic feature, ie Carn Meini, Carn Goedog & Rhos y felin (Darvill, PP etc). Is there any other confirmed Meso. evidence from the other outcrops?

It leads me to think that it was indeed the Mesolithic who were the forefathers and that distant memories and the veneration of previously inhabited sites led ultimately to the Neo. activity that has been the object of so much focus.

Grateful for any info.
[ Reply to This ]

Re: Carn Meini by sem on Thursday, 01 June 2017
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OS grid ref (Coflein) SN1441432482 [updated, thank you]
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Re: Stonehenge mystery offered clue by Welsh burial chamber by sem on Friday, 30 September 2011
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Visited last Sunday and there is plenty of evidence for a recent excavation. The re-laid turf on the East side is quite obvious.
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Stonehenge mystery offered clue by Welsh burial chamber by Andy B on Tuesday, 06 September 2011
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Archaeologists are researching the grave of an important figure they believe may have played a crucial role in the construction of Stonehenge.

The burial chamber is sited above a ceremonial stone circle in the Preseli hills in west Wales, where it is believed bluestone was quarried before being taken to Stonehenge.

More research will be done to establish if the important person buried there played a role in the moving of bluestone 190 miles from west Wales to the Wiltshire monument.

More:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2011/sep/01/welsh-burial-chamber-stonehenge-mystery

With thanks to malcolm44
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Re: Carn Meini by sem on Sunday, 04 September 2011
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I'm willing to bet they've not found the two standing stones in the stone-river, the broken "pillar" stone further North in the river and to the East of Carn Meini the failed attempt to split a stone.
I've tried to find a direct link (or E-Mail address) to Darvill and Wainwright as I hoped to show them these stones. Unfortunately they have no link. Maybe they consider themselves too superior to converse with us mortals.
Sem

PS If D/W do get in touch I've got £50 to give to a charity of their choice.

[ Reply to This ]

Re: Carn Meini by Anonymous on Friday, 02 September 2011
visited Carn Meini several times, have a small segment of rock from there. It's full of crystals that glisten in the sun
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Re: Strumble-Preseli ancient communities and environment study (SPACES) 6th report 20 by Anonymous on Friday, 02 September 2011
Well - all I can say is - moving stones is easy - waiting for a glacier to collect various bluestones from various places and dump the correct number (82) at stonehenge is more problematic
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Re: Strumble-Preseli ancient communities and environment study (SPACES) 6th report 20 by jess on Thursday, 01 September 2011
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I find this extremely exciting even though there are different ideas of what Carn Menyn is and was. I would love to visit the excavation site - does anyone know if it's accessible?

Thanks also for the links - they're great :)
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Strumble-Preseli ancient communities and environment study (SPACES) 6th report 2007-8 by Andy B on Thursday, 01 September 2011
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Strumble-Preseli ancient communities and environment study (SPACES); Sixth report 2007-08.

This paper reports the results of field surveys and geophysical surveys in the eastern Preseli Hills of Pembrokeshire, Wales, together with petrological descriptions of rock samples taken from key outcrops and quarry sites.

Darvill, T., Wainwright, G., Armstrong, K. and Ixer, R.A., 2009. Strumble-Preseli ancient communities and environment study (SPACES); Sixth report 2007-08. Archaeology in Wales, 48, pp. 47-56.

Full text available as:
PDF - Published Version 2597Kb
at http://eprints.bournemouth.ac.uk/13390/
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The Landscape & Perception Project by Andy B on Thursday, 01 September 2011
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Paul Devereux writes:

The full form of this project will involve the audio-visual mapping of two iconic prehistoric landscapes in order to develop a fresh resource of primary audio-visual data. In particular, and uniquely, it will utilise and build upon approaches drawn from archaeoacoustics (the study of sound in archaeological contexts).

Field data collected will provide a resource for audio-visual practice, allowing for “recontextualised” studio, exhibition and research applications. It is expected that useful information will also emerge for archaeological interpretation, heritage management, and various cognitive studies.

Work currently under way

A pilot study being conducted under the auspices of the Royal College of Art. It is focusing on just part of one of the iconic prehistoric landscapes selected for the full project, namely, the Carn Menyn area of Mynydd Preseli in southwest Wales. This upland is the source area for the Stonehenge bluestones.

The Landscape and Perception project coincides with the first major, comprehensive archaeological field study of Preseli, being conducted by SPACES – Strumble-Preseli Ancient Communities and Environment Study. The archaeological consultant for the pilot study is Professor Timothy Darvill, co-director of SPACES with Geoffrey Wainwright and Director of the Centre for Archaeology, Anthropology and Heritage at Bournemouth University. His recent book is Stonehenge: Biography of a Landscape, and he and Wainwright have been excavating within the Stonehenge monument to learn more about the bluestones there.

The overall aim of the Landscape and Perception project is to try
to look and listen as if with Stone Age eyes and ears
so as to return to sensory basics.

Look and listen at: http://www.landscape-perception.com
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Tomb found at 'Stonehenge quarry' site by Andy B on Thursday, 01 September 2011
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The tomb for the original builders of Stonehenge could have been unearthed by an excavation at a site in Wales.

The Carn Menyn site in the Preseli Hills is where the bluestones used to construct the first stone phase of the henge were quarried in 2300BC.

Organic material from the site will be radiocarbon dated, but it is thought any remains have already been removed.

Archaeologists believe this could prove a conclusive link between the site and Stonehenge.

The remains of a ceremonial monument were found with a bank that appears to have a pair of standing stones embedded in it.

The bluestones at the earliest phase of Stonehenge - also set in pairs - give a direct architectural link from the iconic site to this newly discovered henge-like monument in Wales.
Site in Wales of Neolithic tomb The central site had already been disturbed so archaeologists chose to excavate around the edges

The tomb, which is a passage cairn - a style typical of Neolithic burial monument - was placed over this henge.

More, with a photo at BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14733535

(with thanks to PAB)
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Re: Carn Meini: Bluestones by coldrum on Saturday, 09 October 2010
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Link for Proceedings of the British Academy, Volume 92, Science and Stonehenge
edited by Barry Cunliffe & Colin Renfrew

http://www.britac.ac.uk/pubs/cat/pba92.cfm

Few more Geology links:

http://myweb.facstaff.wwu.edu/talbot/RGW/1-INTRO_files/1-INTRO.htm

http://www.creswell-crags.org.uk/Explore/virtually-the-ice-age.aspx

http://www.british-towns.net/national_maps/uk_glacial_limits_map.asp

http://www.geography.learnontheinternet.co.uk/topics/glaciation.html

http://www.bennett.karoo.net/topics/glaciation.html

http://qra.org.uk/

http://www.qpg.geog.cam.ac.uk/

http://www.bgs.ac.uk/opengeoscience/
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Carn Meini: Bluestones by coldrum on Wednesday, 06 October 2010
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This information is from 1997 and is from Proceedings of the British Academy, Volume 92, Science and Stonehenge
edited by Barry Cunliffe & Colin Renfrew

Published 1997

246 x 189 mm; 376 pages + 5 colour plates + 9 colour plans
hardback, ISBN 0-19-726174-4

"C P Green

The geological evidence in Wiltshire gives no support to the view that the stones forming Stonehenge were found by its builders close to the site of construction. The presence of suitable sarsen stones near Stonehenge in the Early Bronze Age is indicated neither by the geological history of the area nor by the present-day distribution of sarsens. The absence of glacial or glacially-derived material on Salisbury Plain makes it unlikely that glacial ice carried the bluestones of Stonehenge from the Preseli Hills to Wessex. The history of the bluestone supposedly found in Bowls Barrow is reviewed.
PBA 92, 257–270 © The British Academy 1997
Transport of the Stonehenge Bluestones: Testing the Glacial Hypothesis
J D Scourse

Two principal mechanisms have been invoked to explain the transport of the far-travelled bluestones used in the Stonehenge monument from their source region in Pembrokeshire: by glacier or by man. Glaciers have been thought to represent the only natural agency capable of transporting boulders of the size of the bluestones over the distances required, and this mechanism has periodically received serious attention since it was first proposed by Judd in 1902. There are two current propositions invoking transport of the bluestones by ice; Thorpe et al. (1991) envisage Anglian ice flowing eastwards from Pembrokeshire across South Wales and into central southern England, whilst Kellaway (1991) suggests deposition from the north in association with a Pliocene glaciation at 2.47Ma. The glacial hypothesis is critically tested by addressing four issues: the physical principles underlying the entrainment and transport of large boulders byglaciers; the occurrence/absence and implications of diagnostic surface microwear and particle shape characteristics of the bluestones; the Pleistocene stratigraphy and geomorphology of southern England and adjacent shelves; and the glaciological plausibility of a source trajectory from Pembrokeshire. It is demonstrated that though glaciers are capable of transporting erratic boulders many thousands of kilometres irrespective of bed topography, the particular case posed by the Stonehenge problem is not compatible either with the mechanics of ice flow or with the geological evidence. The weight of the current available evidence strongly indicates that the Stonehenge bluestones were not transported by ice from Preseli to Salisbury Plain.
PBA 92, 271–314"

It would be interesting to see the full reports on this.

A few links on British Glaciations:

http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/climatechange/environment/iceAges.html

http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/climatechange/environment/periglacial.html

http://phancocks.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/naturalhistory/devensian.htm

http://www.geography-fieldwork.org/icefieldwork/glacial/stage1.htm

http://islesproject.com/2007/11/12/geology-of-britain/

http://www.staffs.ac.uk/schools/sciences/geography/staff/harrist/quatuk/quaternaryofwalesday3.htm

Read the rest of this post...
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    Re: Carn Meini: Bluestones by mountainman on Saturday, 01 October 2011
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    I suspect that Green and Scourse may have to eat their words. neither of them is a glaciologist, and it's clear from both of those chapters in the big Stonehenge book that they were out to shoot down Kellaway and Williams-Thorpe. In concluding that glacial transport was "impossible" they are flying in the face of both glaciological theory and common sense. Glacial transport of an assemblage of erratics was clearly possible and indeed probable -- the only question we really need to address is this: "How close to Stonehenge were the erratics dumped?"

    It's strange that these two geomorphologists should be prepared to accept the human transport thesis without asking for any evidence by way of verification; and yet they are prepared to doubt the glacial transport thesis which does have abundant evidence to support it. I wonder why? Are they so in thrall to the archaeological establishment that they are prepared to believe whatever they are told about the "likelihood" of 82 bluestones being hauled all the way from west Wales to Stonehenge?
    [ Reply to This ]

Stonehenge and Avebury seminar at Devizes, May 2010 by Andy B on Monday, 21 June 2010
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Tim Darvill’s talk on “Beyond Stonehenge” considered the bluestones, unsurprisingly given his recent excavations on the site. But there was little or no mention of healing powers – instead, he gave a very different view of the site to the conventional one that we’re familiar with. He started with the Preseli source sites, where the natural outcroppings are very similar to built monuments, and where there is already a Neolithic culture associated with the source stones. He believes that the bluestones are the first stone structures within the henge, but that they’ve been subject to constant rearrangement through prehistory to Roman times. Some of the remains are no longer found today as orthostats, suggesting that the stones have been constantly recycled into different configurations, and broken up.

Importantly, Darvill claims that we should regard Stonehenge “as a Roman temple”. Certainly the bluestone sequence seems to be much longer than conventional chronologies, with the major pit in Darvill’s excavation dating to the 4th century AD. This long sequence of changes, he suggests, is because the “doing” was more important than the result; perhaps in a similar way to Silbury, where the scope of the monument seems to have been extended many times. (Puzzlingly, Darvill suggests this chain of bluestone activities appears to have included breaking them up for stone implements.) He concluded that there are “many reasons why Stonehenge is Stonehenge …” with all sorts of connections and associations. Was Stonehenge at the centre of the different communities through history, or at the edge? Probably both, at different times.

More at
http://www.eternalidol.com/?p=7267
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British Geological Survey Site by coldrum on Sunday, 20 June 2010
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Any-one interested in geology might like to have a lookn at the British Geological Survey site.

http://www.bgs.ac.uk/

I don't know if they can answer the above controversy but from what I can gather their data is readily available so perhaps someone can have a good look around their site for more information.
[ Reply to This ]

Re: Those magical bluestones; two items by Anonymous on Saturday, 19 June 2010
i've just watched a programme on telly and they said the blue stones were from preseli and they were not moved there by glacier's.
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    Re: Those magical bluestones; two items by Andy B on Sunday, 20 June 2010
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    Hello, despite it being the more far-fetched of the two, the preseli theory is considered by mainstream thinking to be more likely - bonkers eh?
    [ Reply to This ]
      Re: Those magical bluestones; two items by Anonymous on Sunday, 20 June 2010
      The things I find most difficult to understand about the glacial deposit theory are:-

      *Why aren't there a trail of bluestones lying around in the path that the glacier took?

      *Did the glacier just dump the whole of its bluestone content in one place near to Stonehenge?

      *The ancients were pretty selective when it came to choosing stones for their circles, why aren't there a load of rejected bluestones abandoned in the nearby countryside?

      *Why aren't bluestones used in other circles say within a 30 to 50 mile radius of wherever the glacier deposited them?
      [ Reply to This ]

Re: Those magical bluestones; two items by Anonymous on Monday, 22 February 2010
Glacial erosion appears on the northern edge of St.Martins Island, Isles of Scilly and this was the southern extent to my knowledge and the justification given to evident geological deposits on that site. What interests me is the fact that the Jade Axe Head featured on One Hundred Objects in History was sourced to a jadeite outcrop in the Italian Alps, if this process of identification is achievable with the Jade Axe Head why cannot absolute or near absolute provenance be achieved for one of Britains most important cultural locations?
pagettypow
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    Re: Those magical bluestones; two items by Anonymous on Wednesday, 04 May 2011
    Because it take great skill and luck.
    The Alpine jades are very unusual and it is only unusual rocks that can be provenenced
    Read Ixer's "Founded or foundered on rock" -it is online.
    [ Reply to This ]

Re: Those magical bluestones by frogcottage42 on Wednesday, 17 February 2010
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Maybe we should be more concerned that humans could justify the expenditure in effort to erect these monuments than argue about where they may have sourced the raw materials. It cannot be doubted that given the immense works undertaken by some of these builders that they were at least capable of transporting these stones from Preseli if they felt it necessary! It would be nice if mere conjecture was not allowed to masquerade as science and theories could be offered for consideration without the need for name calling and associating blame when some of us don't agree.
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Re: Those magical bluestones by Anonymous on Monday, 15 February 2010
Well, the stones didn't walk there on their own! And they can't be glacial erratics, as glaciation didn't get any further south than a line stretching between Seven-Thames!
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    Re: Those magical bluestones by Anonymous on Monday, 15 February 2010
    From Dafydd ap Gwilym
    Sorry, forgot to include my name - Getting more "erratic" by the day!
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Re: Those magical bluestones by Anonymous on Monday, 15 February 2010
Are the "Bluestones" found at Preseli gelogically comprable to Elvan , Schists or Greenstone found in (for example) Cornwall?
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Re: Those magical bluestones by ryszard on Monday, 15 February 2010
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Should not this discussion be moved to the Stones Forum?

Quote:-

"The petrography, affinity and provenance of lithics from the Cursus Field, Stonehenge" in the Wilts Arch and Nat Hist Mag 2010, is a very impressive and detailed piece of work. It describes in great detail the characteristics of 15 bluestone fragments from the Stonehenge area, and then reviews much other information. "

Did this article appear in any peer-reviewed scientific journal as well as in the Magazine quoted? If not, why not? It is said here to be "most impressive & detailed". Are we to rely only on the strong opinions of some contradicting the alleged fantasies of others? Is this another Conspiracy Theory?
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    Re: Those magical bluestones by Andy B on Monday, 15 February 2010
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    Yes please do, I put Brian's posts on this page so it could go out in the newsletter
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    Re: Those magical bluestones by Anonymous on Wednesday, 17 February 2010
    The Wilts Arch mag is THE accepted magazine for Stonehenge-related papers.
    No my co-author and I are respected for our detailed petrogrpahical and petrological work.
    Not all is as it appears. read the contents lists of the back issues and look at the authors.
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Did HH Thomas cook the books? by Andy B on Sunday, 14 February 2010
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Brian John writes:
I have come across a lot of fraudulent science lately, in other contexts, and this got me thinking about whether HH Thomas deliberately "cooked the books" when it came to his original stunning revelations about the link between Stonehenge and Preseli. Increasingly, I think that he did distort and select his evidence in order to prove his point. For example, we still do not know how many samples he took, and we do not know how many "inconvenient" stones he chose simply not to report on...

More at
http://brian-mountainman.blogspot.com/2010/02/did-hh-thomas-cook-books.html
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Goodbye to the Bluestone Quarry? by Andy B on Sunday, 14 February 2010
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Brian John writes on his blog:
After wasting thousands of hours of everybody's time on the arid debate about the Darvill / Wainwright fantasies of the last couple of years, can we now forget about this wretched Bluestone Quarry? The latest Ixer / Bevins paper, called "The petrography, affinity and provenance of lithics from the Cursus Field, Stonehenge" in the Wilts Arch and Nat Hist Mag 2010, is a very impressive and detailed piece of work. It describes in great detail the characteristics of 15 bluestone fragments from the Stonehenge area, and then reviews much other information. And this is their conclusion:

"Although a few of the Cursus Field lithics, especially the basaltic tuffs, show some similarities to volcanic rocks from North Pembrokeshire, the majority, because of significant differences in mineralogy and textures, cannot be matched with certainty to the Lower Palaeozoic or Neoproterozoic rocks cropping out in southwest Wales, including those found on the Preseli Hills. This situation opens the possibility that, while the spotted dolerites are from the Preseli Hills, other Stonehenge orthostats together with the Altar Stone may come from a far wider and, as yet, unrecognised area, or more likely areas."

As I have pointed out on innumerable occasions in the past, there is absolutely no evidence that the famous Stonehenge spotted dolerites were collected from this area by human beings, and absolutely no evidence that spotted dolerite was "preferred" in any way by the builders of the monument. If there was any quarrying at Carn Meini, it had nothing to do with Stonehenge. The bluestones at Stonehenge were classified by HH Thomas according to what was known at the time -- and I have always thought that he twisted his evidence to suit his theory. But now, with much more sophisticated techniques, geologists have concluded that the bluestones have come from all over the place, and that there are many more rock types than those which HH Thomas described.

Many of the bluestones are indeed from Pembrokeshire, mostly from the area to the north of Carn Meini, on the northern slopes of the upland ridge, but many others are not -- their origins are still unknown. They have to be glacial erratics.

Can we now please consign that wretched quarry to the dustbin of history?

Source:
http://brian-mountainman.blogspot.com/2010/02/goodbye-to-bluestone-quarry.html
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Re: Those magical bluestones by Anonymous on Wednesday, 01 April 2009
there are no bluestones at Avebury no, despite it`s proximity to stonehenge. No bluestones have been found in any of the three circles there
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Re: Those magical bluestones by Anonymous on Friday, 26 September 2008
I'm wondering if any bluestone erratics have been found between Preseli and Wiltshire, surely they should be lying all over the place? And are there any bluestones at Avebury? - one might think that if they were lying about then they would have been used there as well.
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Those magical bluestones by Andy B on Friday, 26 September 2008
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mountainman also adds:

Wait for it -- we had a first dose in April, with the new Stonehenge dig, and now another (much heavier) dose is coming with the Timewatch programme later in Sept 2008. Profs Darvill and Wainwright will be waxing eloquent about the supposed magical properties of the spotted dolerite of Carn Meini, and about the efficacious qualities of the "healing springs" of the area -- all as a part of their attempt to show that the bluestones were collected from a Carn Meini quarry by our Neolithic ancestors and and carted off to Stonehenge as the key components of a Neolithic healing centre.

Nice story -- a shame about the truth. I agree with Robin Heath on this. To cite the frequency of "healing springs" around Preseli in support of this theory is to build speculation upon nonsense. All hill masses have springs around them, and in Pembrokeshire it rains a lot, giving rise to abundant springs and bogs. In an area like this with a long tradition of Celtic Christianity many of the springs will have a reputation for being sacred or having healing properties. Same thing in Cornwall or Brittany, or Ireland.

I live on the flanks of Mynydd Preseli, and I can assure you that there are sacred springs all over Pembrokeshire, and most of them have nothing whatsoever to do with bluestone outcrops. The fact that bluestone was sometimes used in the masonry (arches, containing walls etc) around a spring was simply down to the fact that it happened to be the local stone. Where sandstone or some other rock was available, that was used.

Having studied Pembrokeshire folklore for more than 40 years I have not come across a single tradition that invests
bluestone with any healing properties. Sadly, the two good professors are out with the fairies on this one. More here: http://www.brianjohn.f2s.com/bluestonesimp58.html
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    Re: Those magical bluestones by Aluta on Thursday, 02 April 2009
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    Out with the fairies is a brilliant place to be and I've always wished I could get there!
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Re: Carn Meini by mountainman on Sunday, 31 August 2008
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Can I suggest that this site has the wrong label attached to it? I know that our old friends Darvill and Wainwright want it to be an "ancient quarry" and claim that this is where the Stonehenge bluestones came from. But that is fantasy. There is no sign that Carn Meini was "quarried" any more than any of the other tors in the area -- they have all had stone taken from them, mostly in modern times, for buildings and gate posts etc. In any case, the bluestones at Stonehenge came from at least 7 different localities -- Olwen Williams-Thorpe and her colleagues showed that more than 10 years ago. The largest number of spotted dolerites seem to have come from Carn Goedog, on the northern flank of the Preseli ridge. They were probably (nothing is certain in life) entrained by over-riding glacier ice, and deposited west of Stonehenge as part of an erratic train.

Suggest the Carn Meini site is re-labelled as "natural rock outcrop"? Or you could label it as the site of the rather crude chambered tomb referred to locally as a sacrificial stone....

More info here:
http://www.brianjohn.f2s.com/bluestones62b.html
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Beyond Stonehenge: Carn Meini and the Preseli bluestones lecture, 30 Nov by Andy B on Friday, 20 October 2006
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Beyond Stonehenge: Carn Meini and the Preseli bluestones'.

A public lecture describing Professor Tim Darvill's and Professor Geoffry Wainwright's research, as cruelly laughed at by the Society of Antiquaries.

Thursday 30 November 17.30-19.00, Allsebrook Lecture Theatre, Talbot Campus, Bournemouth BH12 5BB, England.
For more information or to register a place contact: Zoe Monk, Tel: 01202 961033 Email: bulectures@bournemouth.ac.uk
Web: http://www.bournemouth.ac.uk/conservation/

Source: Britarch mailing list
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