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Feature Articles: Threats to Photographers' Rights?
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Submitted by Thorgrim on Sunday, 26 June 2005 Page Views: 13390
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 Country: England
External Links:
   Little Meg submitted by traveller
Are you clear about what you can and cannot photograph in Britain? You cannot photograph prisons and certain security premises and few of us would argue with that, but English Heritage and the National Trust now apply restrictions on the photographing of many of their sites and seem to think that they have a claim on any of your images that you want to sell. Does copyright still reside with the individual photographer - or does the site "owner" now have legitimate control? Many organisations and publishers will not accept photographs if they show any PEOPLE in the scene! Perhaps that is not a major issue for Portal photographers, but where are we going? Why are the prohibitions growing ever more oppressive?
Recently I was working on commission and photographing listed buildings in a village in Norfolk. I was approached twice by the local Neighbouhod Watch. They had taken my vehicle number and said that I had been reported as behaving suspiciously at various locations in and around the village. All that I had been doing was taking photographs of old buildings! I was then approached by the local headmistress who challenged me and said that she had been told that "a man was taking photographs of the children in the playground"! Of course, I hadn't and had been nowhere near the children. Again, I managed to calm her down and allay her fears - but suppose I had not been able to reassure her? I was using film so couldn't reveal child free digital images. What if she had called the police? Would they have confiscated my films and locked me up for the night?
The following article by Chris Cheeseman in the current Amateur Photography magazine (22/06/05) sounds a warning that we should all note and respond to if we want to retain the basic right to photograph ANYONE in any PUBLIC PLACE.
"There is growing support for Amateur Photography's campaign against measures that threaten photographers' right to take pictures in public.
This follows an announcement by London Mayor Ken Livingstone - backed by the Metropolitan Police - that photographers using digital cameras and camera phones to take pictures of children in London's parks and other public spaces could be paedophiles.
The Mayor said parents should be vigilant and he is considering plans to put up signs across London to warn them of what he see as the potential dangers.
Many MPs revealed their objections to the plans after Austin Mitchell, MP for Great Grimsby, tabled an Early Day Motion (EDM) in the House of Commons to garner the support of fellow politicians following our news story on the controversy (see AP news 11 June).
An EDM is a petition that allows MPs to express and publicise their opinions on given matters and gives fellow politicians the opportunity to support it.
Austin's EDM – tabled in the House of Commons on 6 June - attacks the moves as 'panic' measures against photographers taking entirely innocent pictures of children and young people in public places. He says these are 'unnecessary and unfair', casting a 'slur' on photography and photographers, both amateur and professional.
To read the EDM in full - and for more reaction to this story - see next week's AP, in shops on Tuesday 28 June."
Any views? What do you think? Justifiable protectionism or paranoia?
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| "Threats to Photographers' Rights?" | Login/Create an Account | 35 comments |
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Re: Threats to Photographers' Rights? (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Monday, 27 June 2005 | | Can you give us an idea what sites EH and the NT are restricting photography at? I've only encountered problems at posh houses, where there's an obvious paranoia about people photographing the goodies and the in-house security systems, but I've never had a any problems at an archaeological site. | [ Reply to This ]
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Re: Threats to Photographers' Rights? (Score: 1)
by traveller on Sunday, 26 June 2005
(User Info | Send a Message) | I thought I recognized the picture :-)
I think it’s getting out of hand now, like you, I was told that I could not take pictures, of my sons Nativity play last year, as the images of children may fall into the wrong hands.
There just seems to be so much red tape these days.
EH & NT may say they own the sites, but surely they belong to us all in a way, after all many of us contribute towards the upkeep of these sites. I suppose it boils down to what you intend to do with the pictures, but I see not need to restrict pictures of sacred sites, after all they are open to us all. I can only see their point in relation to museum artefacts and stately homes, in many of those places you are forbidden to take pictures due to the sensitive nature of the items on show.
Trav
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Re: Threats to Photographers' Rights? (Score: 1)
by JimChampion on Sunday, 26 June 2005
(User Info | Send a Message) | I've been told that if you wear a hi-vis ("fluorescent") vest whilst taking photos then you get a lot less hassle than if you don't. This is from a friend of mine who has to take photos for surveying work, and interestingly there was an article by a photographer in the Guardian Weekend magazine saying much the same thing. I guess the psychology of the thing is "look there's someone who looks like they're doing something official, we don't need to worry." In the same minds someone "up to no good" would not want to draw this much attention to themselves.
The Neighbourhood Watch people were right: you were acting suspiciously - at least as far as they were concerned ;) They probably think there's a paedophile lurking in every bush. Most likely there were lots of people who saw you and didn't think you were suspicious - you just didn't meet them because they didn't feel the need to approach you. | [ Reply to This ]
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Re: Threats to Photographers' Rights? (Score: 1)
by JimChampion on Sunday, 26 June 2005
(User Info | Send a Message) | I've had a further think about this, and am wondering where the line is going to be drawn...
What if I paint a picture of one of these sites? Or make a pencil sketch, or even an etch-a-sketch? What if I visit the site, then go home and make a photorealistic painting of the site from memory (remember that boy in the TV documentary years ago who could draw St Pancras station in amazing detail after seeing it only once?), then take a photo of my painting. What if I make a drawing of the site, but use a camera lucida to get the perspective right?
...I can see the legal consultants rubbing their hands together with glee.
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Re: Threats to Photographers' Rights? (Score: 1)
by AlexHunger on Monday, 27 June 2005
(User Info | Send a Message) | A lot of museums want to restrict photos of their items in order to sell postcards of them. It makes sense to leave them a little income as the pictures taken through a glass case are not very good in most cases.
Restrictions on outdoor sites would make an interesting test case!
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Re: Threats to Photographers' Rights? (Score: 1)
by creators on Tuesday, 28 June 2005
(User Info | Send a Message) | I am currently in an interesting situation, if you'll bear with me. I'll come back to the people thing another day. I have a set of stereo pictures of Cheddar Caves and the Gorge and approached the Cheddar Gorge company twice last year in order to pimp my pictures. On each occasion they blew me out and made me feel like a second hand car salesman of the worst kind. So I just let it die and sought pastures new.
This year I happened into one of the shops in the gorge and got talking with the owner who sells a few stereo pictures and mentioned how unusual it was to see them and that I had an interest as I too produce stereo pictures. She got all excited as they sell well and we arranged that I'd take my stuff in. She liked my work and we struck a deal and all seemed well with the world.....
Until she got paranoid about the Cheddar company, 'could we, can we, sell pictures of a site owned by them?'
Right now it is unresolved, their official person was unavailable today, as he has been on each of the four occasions I've rung over the last two weeks.
I have yet to discover whether a site owner has a lien in common law on pictures taken on their site, though English Heritage have tied it up legally and do have such a lien. From the little I have found out I believe that there is no such common law, so it's down to fair business practice, am I and this shop owner threatening the livelihood of the Cheddar Company? The Cheddar companies resistance to talking to me suggests to me that they are just being bloody minded and the shop owner has given me her blessing to sell to them if that is the only way I can sell my pictures.
I find it difficult that a company like the Cheddar Gorge company should have any problem with a shop selling a few, or even a lot, of my pictures of the caves. The Caves and the Gorge are the reason people visit the Gorge, and the Cheddar company earn a great deal of money from them. I have already decided that whatever happens I am not going to sell my stuff through The Cheddar company. I hate corporate greed and I hate the attitude of grab and grab. I cannot and will not, in all conscience, sell out to them.
I hate all this rivalry crap, we are human beings for goodness sake, we aren't pigs fighting over a trough. There is enough to go round if the greedy b*st*rds would stop being so damned greedy. Why do I and this shop have to be seen as rivals, why not a fellow person and shop, fellow people all working to make an honest living?
Globally, locally and personally I hate crap like this! It's evil, wicked and wrong. Life is sweeter and better than this swinging meanness. As a photographer, encountering beauty intimately and personally, as I strive for excellence in photographic form, this stuff impacts me deeply. I will not sell my soul for a handful of silver crap. But it is much more difficult to deal with how much it hurts. | [ Reply to This ]
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Re: Threats to Photographers' Rights? (Score: 1)
by ShropshireTraveller on Tuesday, 28 June 2005
(User Info | Send a Message) | I've been listening to Depeche Mode a lot recently, and some of their stuff has deep meaning.
"The grabbing hands, grab all they can
All for themselves
After all,
It's a competitve world
Everything counts in large amounts"
This attitude is one reason why I don't work for large 'successful' companies now - you are there just to make the corporate monster money. Your raison d'etre for them is ££££ $$$$; anything they do to improve your work life is for more ££££ $$$$ My attitude is do something you love, and do it with people who value you and what you do as an individual, not as a cog in a money machine. Money is
not the goal of my employment (albeit a necessary by product), but doing something fulfilling & worthwhile on a personal level.
This is a very interesting discussion... perhaps this money lark is behind it all. People, companies, grabbing more money than they need, and controlling others' enjoyment of places in order to make more.
"The grabbing hands, grab all they can". | [ Reply to This ]
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Re: Threats to Photographers' Rights? (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Tuesday, 28 June 2005 | | Well, if I remember rightly 1984 wasn't to do with money? | [ Reply to This ]
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Re: Threats to Photographers' Rights? (Score: 1)
by creators on Tuesday, 28 June 2005
(User Info | Send a Message) | | No, it was to do with everything this thread is about though, the mind bending messed upness of the world we live in, which also includes money, corporate greed and global destruction, crooks in suits and all the rest of it. So I found LudwigE's comment highly appropriate. | [ Reply to This ]
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Re: Threats to Photographers' Rights? (Score: 1)
by orak100 on Wednesday, 06 July 2005
(User Info | Send a Message) | Just a note re the pictures of kids part of this thread.
I remember a news report of a couple of years ago about a guy seen having his way with a goat in full view of a train. If memory serves me right, he was arrested. If someone is sexually attracted to a goat then an entirely innocent picture of a goat will probably get them excited.
An innocent photograph (or painting, sketch, claymation, action figure, etc) of a group of children playing happily at a picnic near a sacred site would be considered illicit fodder for some people but simply a celebration of youth to others.
Where is the line to be drawn? Eventually we'll only be able to take close-up photographs of bricks...until someone works out how sexually exciting bricks really can be. | [ Reply to This ]
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Re: Threats to Photographers' Rights? (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Sunday, 10 July 2005 | My daughter has just completed a photography degree (successfully). Two of her projects were based on photos taken at Witley Court in Worcs. English Heritage couldn't have been more helpful to her, and nothing has been said about copyright etc. She also did a project involving children at Attingham Park near Shrewsbury. Again the National Trust person she dealt with was extremely helpful, and got the necessary parental permission.
So is it a question of the individual you deal with, or is it just the way you handle the whole thing? I agree the situation is becoming utterly ridiculous. | [ Reply to This ]
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Re: Threats to Photographers' Rights? (Score: 1)
by expatpete on Tuesday, 20 September 2005
(User Info | Send a Message) | In my opinion the whole thing is paranoia where photos of kids are concerned !
I have lived out of the UK for 30something years on disaster relief work - mainly in so called "third world" countries and whereever I have worked, be it South America, Africa, Middle East and now the Far East, the first thing that the locals want is for me to take photos of their kids!!
Following the 2005 Tsunami I raised funds for my local village In Tsunami hit Phuket, by having a one man photo exhibition in Kaohsuing Taiwan ( where I work) entitled " The World of Children".
All photos were of kids having fun all over the world - including post Tsunami kids in Thailand.
Could I now be investigated if I tried to do it again in UK!!!
Makes you think
Pete
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Re: Threats to Photographers' Rights? (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Tuesday, 27 December 2005 | | Tourists - please come to Britain. We can offer you secure free accommodation for the night. Conditions apply - merely take a few photographs practically anywhere in Britain to qualify and the police will oblige. | [ Reply to This ]
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Re: Threats to Photographers' Rights? (Score: 1)
by honeybee on Saturday, 07 October 2006
(User Info | Send a Message) | | I think I would take a picture then test the law. Though quite cynical by nature, I really dont believe your average police person would welcome the paperwork for an innocent pic! | [ Reply to This ]
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Re: Threats to Photographers' Rights? (Score: 1)
by jackdaw1 on Friday, 26 October 2007
(User Info | Send a Message) | We live in a dictatorship that's based on the fear program, unfortunately insecurities abound every corner and these propogate at the HIGHEST level of 'society'.The main problem being that jo public is either unaware of this or too apathetic to make some sort of response to our 'liberties' being slowly eroded from under our very noses.There's always some sort of fear based/motivated justification of why certain 'measures' are introduced by central government to control our rights to a free society. 'They' keep the real,true information about these motives well and truly guarded and this tends to be the only way we are kept 'in line' to herd into whichever cattle shed we are 'meant' to go.
Hope i don't sound too cynical but i find that in this ever increasingly insecure,plastic world we live in this is more than the reality if we ever wake up to it! | [ Reply to This ]
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